Help identifying old Claud Butler

[creindesign]

Hi Colin, great find! Interesting frame and nice twin crown fork.
Maybe I have missed it, but do you have a frame number?
Should be under BB, and/or check the fork tube.
Might help to pinpoint a year of fabrication - and consequently narrow down the model options.
BTW, your left rear dropout looks out of shape - you can probably coldset it to its original shape.

An old post from ctc forum http://forum.ctc.org.uk/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=12093
same continental dropouts on the rear - looks to be the same finish - top seatstays are different and it has a different seatcluster.
Didn't CB usually use a seat clip on their brazed models?
If you look closely to the seat cluster, could it have been repaired / changed? The brazing looks a bit rough round the seat post on the pictures...

All the best, Rogier

 

[Losgaintir]

Re:

Hello Rogier,
Thank you for your interest.
The frame no. under the bottom bracket is 841852 and I have yet to remove the front steerer/stem assembly to check the number on that. Hopefully, they will be identical.
No, the nearside rear drop out is not bent. They are both like it and it is a design feature, which cartainly appeared in the 1949
Claud Butler catalogue, probably before. Not too sure what the advantage is, claimed or otherwise?
Colin

 

[Losgaintir]

Re:

Hello again Rogier,
I have just done what I ought to have, prior to replying to your message, namely, look at the link you kindly provided.
Very interesting, depending on the light source the image was taken in, might even be the same colour!
Certainly a lugless frame and I understand, that immediately post the second world war, skilled labour was cheaper than materials and also readily available, hence more lugless frames.
The tops of the seat stays do appear to be different to mine, ,as various, more knowledgeable people have kindly pointed out, catalogue images were a very basic guide and not the Bible. This almost begs the question, are there any frames out there, that actually mimic catalogue images and specifications
Sorry for all waffle
Colin

 

[creindesign]

Hi Colin,
Guesstimate: April 1948
The dropouts were probably made like this to ease the rear wheel axle in the drops. You just have to "drop" your frame on to the wheel and it will slide in In a time where most of the racing was done on fixed/fixed or fixed/free wheels, clubmen had to "flop" their wheels on a regular basis...

I guess you could even use it as a sort of stand if you were working on the rear wheel.

The reason why I thought your left dropout looks out of shape - see attached pic. Take out the rear wheel and measure the width of the axle slot. I could be wrong, could be the picture.

Have a great weekend and kr, Rogier

 

[Losgaintir]

Re:

Hello Rogier,
Thanks for your input, much appreciated.
The concensus seems to be late 1940,s to perhaps early 1950,s
If and when I can establish which model it is, I will probably be sending the frame to Argos in Bristol for small repairs and re-painting. I will be retaining the rims and brakes and will be trying to source period correct parts, to re-build.
Colin

 

[creindesign]

I think you are looking at a 1948 International Club model here.
The frame number - first digit the year, second digit the month --> 1948 April
The 1948 catalogue shows the seat cluster as you have on your bike - so without the seat clip. From 1949 the seat clip became "standard" on all welded models.
The angles and wheelbase match as well

Update This looks like a definite match, according to the owner a 1948 International Club: https://www.flickr.com/photos/bry-z/with/16178431318/
You can find the thread here: http://www.bikeforums.net/classic-vinta ... utler.html apparently his grandfather had a terrible accident on this bike and had to renew the forks.

Again, great find and nice project!

I hope you will keep us up to date on your identification process and the restoration.
KR, Rogier

 

[Big Block]

Re:

I did provide lots of links in that thread!
http://www.bikeforums.net/classic-vinta ... utler.html

because it was an American-centric forum I wanted to point the English owner to the resources. The regular members of that Forum don't seem to have a natural affinity with post-WW2 English lightweights.

It might be useful to you to follow the links I provided (a lot of resources readily available).

Philip

 

[Losgaintir]

Re:

Hello Philip and Rogier,
Great information and links and what fantastic provenance for Roy Fossett's bike
My frame does differ from his in the fork crown and varies from the Catalogue description in not having any brazed on cable lead lugs or clips.
But otherwise looks to be on the money.
Many thanks to everyone who has contributed information and I will document the restoration and post images as I go on.
Have just acquired a bike stand to aid in my endeavours and will soon be starting to photograph and document, prior to stripping down and storing parts.
Would I be correct in thinking that spanner sizing for these older bikes may be BSW ?
Any practical advice on dissassembly would be gratefully received.
My last "fiddling" with bikes was done some sixty years ago, memory not quite what it once was!
Colin

 

[keithglos]

Re:

Colin

Front wheel nuts, saddle pillar clamp 5/16 BSF, rear wheel 3/8 BSF, cotter pin 1/4 BSF.
There is some compatibility with Whitworth. Cycle threads 24 and 26 tpi.

Your LH bottom bracket cup looks like a Raleigh 26 tpi should be 24 tpi. Could be a problem to check before painting.

Keith

 

[Losgaintir]

Re:

Hi Keith,
Thanks for the thread/spanner information.
I am intrigued by your comment ref. the bottom bracket threads.
Are these differences immediately obvious, even externally ?
Surely you could not force a 26TPI thread into a 24, or could you?
Colin