The No Longer Avoidable Independence Debate Thread
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jonthefish
Senior Retro Guru
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Mr Panda":1pa8gibm said:
Great Putin pics! I fear that Eck's 6-pack would look more like mine, so he'd best keep shirt on
Is Mr Panda asking the right question? Has anyone seen evidence proving we'll be worse off if we go it alone..........
Seen plenty unsupported opinion and many lies and half-truths, but nothing very substantial. I wonder how much folks' take on this depends how p..sed off they are with business as usual.
Now the science bit .... The way I see is is it is all lies from both sides so the facts are somewhere betweeen both sides, which actually means it will probably be about the same as it is now but self governed - so to me it is marginally in favour of independance.
ok this isn't scientific
ok this isn't scientific
epicyclo
Senior Retro Guru
The thing is, if as the doom merchants say, we'll be worse off, then we can change it.
A government for Scotland is more likely to be driven by the need to satisfy a Scottish electorate than one run from Westminster which (rightly) has bigger fish to fry.
None of the nations that have gone independent have gone cap in hand to their previous masters asking to be allowed back, so unless Scots are dumber than them, I'd expect the same here.
A government for Scotland is more likely to be driven by the need to satisfy a Scottish electorate than one run from Westminster which (rightly) has bigger fish to fry.
None of the nations that have gone independent have gone cap in hand to their previous masters asking to be allowed back, so unless Scots are dumber than them, I'd expect the same here.
gmac123
MacRetro Rider
is this decision really down to wanting to be better or worse off.
to me it's a question of independence or remaining part of the UK.
has being part of the uk served you well?
do you believe that you will loose benefits of being a uk citizen?
do you want your national identity to be British or Scottish?
I know what I think in the above points.
firmly believe that we'll not be worse off, but nothing is for sure. the only thing that I know for sure is that it will not be financially disastrous.
to me it's a question of independence or remaining part of the UK.
has being part of the uk served you well?
do you believe that you will loose benefits of being a uk citizen?
do you want your national identity to be British or Scottish?
I know what I think in the above points.
firmly believe that we'll not be worse off, but nothing is for sure. the only thing that I know for sure is that it will not be financially disastrous.
jonthefish
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epicyclo":11rhckkq said:
Well said. Were we to vote "yes", we'd be entering a process of nation building. I'm endlessly astonished at how many folk I speak to that view a "yes" vote as a vote for the SNP. Nothing of the sort. Simply a vote for another way of doing things.
jonthefish
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Mr Panda":iid9nwr1 said:
No proof and there won't be. The economists that aren't working for one side or another in the debate reckon it'll be down to GDP pear head post-referendum. That will be down to how the economy is managed. As we are one of the better off bits of the UK (even excluding oil) the prospect doesn't seem too terrifying.
Mainly have to judge by quality of argument and Better Together are going downhill fast. Wheeling out Barosso to state the same old bollocks he came out with months ago??! :facepalm: Maybe BBC didn't notice it wasn't news or that the Spanish Foreign Minister has already said Spain has no interest in blocking Scottish accession to EU if we want it. And as for comparing Scotland to Kosovo.........well, judge for yourself.
I am watching this with much interest but if I am really honest (and remove any sentiment for our union which is irrelevant!) I don't have much concern for the outcome either way, I don't think it will really affect me very much.
If Scotland leaves the union, then what will change for us here in England? Nothing, probably not even the flag, it'll still be the UK, we'll eventually move the Trident base (& jobs) to Plymouth, naval ship building to Portsmouth - in the grand scheme of things that won't affect the Scot's much either. Loosing 5m people is hardly going to affect our place on the world stage, (which lets face it in 20 years time is going to be like a spec of fly sh1t on the windscreen of China/India any way!).
What I do find amazing is the total lack of definitive information and a PLAN for the Scottish electorate on which to base a decision. Comparisons with Norway are misplaced, Salmond is full of hot air - I think this is more of an ego trip for him than anything else, Cameron/Osbourne/Milliband - well enough said - totally out of their depth every time one of them opens their mouth more people are persuaded by the yes vote I am sure. About the only person who has actually given some reasoned argument/fact to one element of the debate is Mark Carnie and he's not even from the UK.
While I don't think in/out affects the current status quo I do think that greater (almost total) devolution of power to Scotland with a shared monetary policy, (no I don't think it should be called the bank of england!), a shared defence policy and a shared head of state, could be good for all concerned - you guys/girls deal with your day to day and we'll deal with ours, hopefully in time the Welsh and N Irish can get the same.
I genuinely hope it works out for you Scots, I wish you all the best of luck in what ever future you choose in September - please still let us come and ride from time to time!!
In any case I guess if you do vote 'yes' then it is not a decision for devolution just a basis on which to start negotiations for it - then if it looks like a bad idea in a few years then you'll be able to vote out the SNP in the 2019 general elections reverse/halt the process? (is that the case?).
If Scotland leaves the union, then what will change for us here in England? Nothing, probably not even the flag, it'll still be the UK, we'll eventually move the Trident base (& jobs) to Plymouth, naval ship building to Portsmouth - in the grand scheme of things that won't affect the Scot's much either. Loosing 5m people is hardly going to affect our place on the world stage, (which lets face it in 20 years time is going to be like a spec of fly sh1t on the windscreen of China/India any way!).
What I do find amazing is the total lack of definitive information and a PLAN for the Scottish electorate on which to base a decision. Comparisons with Norway are misplaced, Salmond is full of hot air - I think this is more of an ego trip for him than anything else, Cameron/Osbourne/Milliband - well enough said - totally out of their depth every time one of them opens their mouth more people are persuaded by the yes vote I am sure. About the only person who has actually given some reasoned argument/fact to one element of the debate is Mark Carnie and he's not even from the UK.
While I don't think in/out affects the current status quo I do think that greater (almost total) devolution of power to Scotland with a shared monetary policy, (no I don't think it should be called the bank of england!), a shared defence policy and a shared head of state, could be good for all concerned - you guys/girls deal with your day to day and we'll deal with ours, hopefully in time the Welsh and N Irish can get the same.
I genuinely hope it works out for you Scots, I wish you all the best of luck in what ever future you choose in September - please still let us come and ride from time to time!!
In any case I guess if you do vote 'yes' then it is not a decision for devolution just a basis on which to start negotiations for it - then if it looks like a bad idea in a few years then you'll be able to vote out the SNP in the 2019 general elections reverse/halt the process? (is that the case?).
