The No Longer Avoidable Independence Debate Thread

[fjpshaw]

I won't make this thread about my career choice - all I will say is that as part of the UK, work on the Clyde is secure for over 20 years. You clearly know about the carriers, and you have more than likely heard of OPV and Type-26.

As for building on the Clyde, unfortunately, and in contrast to yourself, I believe it is very likely that the bulk of any defence fleet could come from outwith the Clyde. The independent proposal for a new fleet has no mention of combat vessels, meaning there is no risk to national security of contracting equipment abroad. Even in the case of combat vessels, the steelwork can be easily be sourced abroad, brought to Scotland and outfitted. Unfortunately, that work won't support the industry on the Clyde (and Rosyth for that matter), even in our now slimmed down form.

 

[47p2]

What I don't understand is where all the money is coming from that the SNP say they will be spending once we are independent
£2bn here, £65m there, £1.8bn somewhere else.

There's only £5m of us in Scotland and if you take unemployed, pensioners and children out of the equation it doesn't leave many folk working and paying income tax to fund everything

Oh yes but we have oil, that'll keep us out of the gutter for...how long!!!

 

[velomaniac]

Still got tons of coal and shale aswell as oil. Loads of timber, minerals, water obviously, lots of coast from farmed and natural fish point of view. Best hope for renewable energy sources. Reputation for quality luxury goods, tourism etc etc etc
We are far from short of resources.
The UK does not create wealth out of thin air, it exploits its resources as an independent Scotland would. England actually has a lot to fear from us leaving as bang goes our resources ito their coffers. Plus we have more natural resources per head of population than England, in this regard our small population is a boon.

 

[epicyclo]

What I don't understand is where all the money is coming from that the SNP say they will be spending once we are independent
£2bn here, £65m there, £1.8bn somewhere else....

If you look at the money Scotland is currently paying out as its share for the capacity to wage foreign wars, then there is one huge saving right there...

 

[gmac123]

read a few articles recently, written by international journalist looking at us (it's so difficult to get a balanced view) and it's all been favourable for the indie case (canny readily find them in my history tho :facepalm: )

I've seen 9.8% of tax collected comes from Scotland, whilst 9.1% comes back in spending. Not bad for 8.7% of the population. but we all know deep down we're not in deficit with our resources and assets.

Appreciate there's a income tax vs public spending deficit that always gets mentioned, yawn, but that the case everywhere north of the M25 (where the economy is different and economy of scale really levers the value of spending), and if the heralds PWC commissioned tax review of ~4 years ago is credible which it should be, then the issue is far worse in the north of england and NI than scotland. but it's a democracy and this scenario exists in all credible democracies

the other common call out is how tax raised north of the border has paid for major infrastructure developments in the south and that's incredibly evident if you're a regular visitor to the uk's major cities.

as mentioned there's so much smoke and mirrors, and it's incredibly difficult to trust any of them, was incredibly sceptical of the snp when they formed a coalition government, however was not surprised by the time they went on to win a majority. not a fan of the key characters, but they have achieved, and provided good governance, with barely any of the scandal of their predecessors. no wonder our neighbours are baffled with our free prescriptions and education. and no wonder labour are sh!ting themselves, they'll be a long time in opposition with out scottish seats.

our workforce probably has too much civil service, however these were decisions made south of the border and we certainly didn't vote for the current government

tbh I didn't ask for this but would grab it with both hands and never ever look back. i don't believe it will result in major hardship, but I'd take it anyway for the future generations. it's unfortunate for those that have worked for independence that it comes against a back drop of economic terror, otherwise I think it might have sailed through

I do hate how we're always painted as a burden, so for me if scotland was burden on the uk why don't they cut it off,

it comes down to a simple question for me, if we're such a burden, then why did they even bother with a (comatose) better together campaign. if it was a business (which essentially is what it is) they'd happily cut a loss maker from the P&L.

my prediction - don't think it'll happen, on the positive we will get more devolved power, and we'll look back on 10, 15, 20 year with hindsight and go wtf :facepalm:

 

[gmac123]

What I don't understand is where all the money is coming from that the SNP say they will be spending once we are independent
£2bn here, £65m there, £1.8bn somewhere else....

If you look at the money Scotland is currently paying out as its share for the capacity to wage foreign wars, then there is one huge saving right there...

I'm sure annual public spending in scotland is about £60Bn, so £1m or £65m here or there is chicken feed tbh.. sounds obscene doesn't it

 

[jonthefish]

Good job starting this thread! Debate is needed.
I read listen to and read the mainstream media avidly, but feel I’m being conned re. the referendum. To be fair, the “Yes” guys need to pull their socks up, but the media coverage is appalling. Yesterday I found this analysis of broadcasting (no surprise to me): http://worldofstuart.excellentcontent.c ... stYear.pdf

My own favourite bit of reporting to date was “supermarket bosses say food will cost more in independent Scotland”. Headline news nationally and of concern to all of us other than the very wealthy. A wee bit of digging by independent journalists soon exposed the report as bollocks. Were there any retractions from BBC etc? Not that I heard. What a great way to scare the poorer folks (if they aren't at the food bank), who most opinions polls suggest are less likely to be firmly settled in the “No” camp.

Likewise the EU stuff. Why would the EU reject 5 million current members (us) in a highly developed economy? The main doubt was cast by Spain, feart of the Catalans going their own way. Hardly unbiased. There is no EU mechanism I'm aware of for throwing us out, even if they wanted to, which they wouldn't.

At present, the nonsense peddled by the "No" camp has tipped me from a genuine “Don’t know” to “Give me a good reason to vote no”.

 

[epicyclo]

I find it best to ignore all the arguments, and try to think what could be wrong with voting for self-determination and democracy.

 

[velomaniac]

The Ukranians and Russians voted for self determination and democracy, look where it got them :roll:

 

[The Ken]

I think that Alex Salmon isn't quite as hardline as Mr Putin