Plan on Cycle Deaths and Accidents, ideas and suggestions.

[M-Power]

Re: Plan on Cycle Deaths and Accidents, ideas and suggestion

This is what we should be aiming for in London and other major conurbations in the UK.

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cycling_in_Copenhagen

Yes it will cost £Bs and result in demolition but its worth it in the long term IMO. The population of London and the UK is rapidly expanding. Cycling could also have positive psychological effects on 'calming city people's aggression down' . People will start to talk to each other more and it may even go some way to reducing the spiraling decent into no-go ganglands, which is already happening in many polarised inner cities.

I love a car, a comfy fast car as much as anybody trust me but I would cycle far far more if the risk of death or life affecting injury was much reduced. The health and wellbeing benefits from increasing cycling in the UK will manifest themselves in MANY ways. It's ALL good, reduces obesity, improves people's productivity at work, boosts the immune system, releases endorphins etc etc

The UK could be pioneers, if they stop the US style car centric approach. I'm a JC fan but he and his tabloid ilk must stop castigating cyclists as some sort of retarded lawless 'vermin' on our roads. Many of us pay road tax too, in my case the full whack ! I'd far rather see money spent on cycle schemes, than on Kinaesthesian policies of economic regeneration through a National 'road works' scheme.

 

[MikeD]

Re: Plan on Cycle Deaths and Accidents, ideas and suggestion

Many of us pay road tax too, in my case the full whack !

Nobody pays road tax.

 

[Thunderchief]

Re: Plan on Cycle Deaths and Accidents, ideas and suggestion

Many of us pay road tax too, in my case the full whack !

Nobody pays road tax.

While technically true, we do pay road tax, because it is only applied to vehicles on the road. Vehicles not using the public roads do not have to pay, therefor it is in reality a tax to use the roads.

Having said that paying road tax is irrelevant to peoples rights to use the roads, I have a 66 Buick that pays no tax, I'd like to see Mondeo man arguing that off the road! ;-)

I'm not sure a busstop system would help, surely one of the good things about a bike is that you can go anywhere and anytime? but then I don't ride a bike much on the road, only when absolutely necessary.

 

[Neil]

Re: Plan on Cycle Deaths and Accidents, ideas and suggestion

I think you are trying to cure the symptom rather than the actual problem - which is that individuals in society have become very self-focused with lost consideration for the "old rules of society" and consideration of others.

If all road users drove or rode with respect to other users and respected the (highly developed) highway code then a lot of collisions etc could be avoided. People are generally in too much of a hurry and don't have the time to make the effort.

To do this either you change people's attitude by communication and education or you legislate. Personally I think we need to try to set an example because to tell someone else to do something that we don't do ourselves is just hypocritical. So for example, if red lights apply to all road users then we should either obey them or change the law that means does not apply to certain road users. If individuals just unilaterally decide which rules apply and which don't then the general trend will be towards a general disregard of them and so onto chaos. There are groups of people who think the mistake that Emma Way made was tweeting rather than the attitude.

I pretty much completely agree with all of this. Practically everything I read, in terms of "solutions" is about dealing with the symptoms, rather than addressing the cause.

The setting an example, I try and do on the rare times I actually cycle on road, and also when I'm driving around cyclists.

That said, I think it's mostly irrelevant - most won't recognise the right thing, just remember the wrong things. Cyclists, nor motorists are cohesive groups, there's good and bad in each, but the various warring factions just want to selectively make exceptions representative, in order to have an argumentative standpoint.

I guess the thing with the idiot tweeter, is just symptomatic of a burgeoning sense of arrogance, stemming from ignorance, but exacerbated by many mundane, mediocre people having a greater, or more broadcasted voice due to the great leveller that is technology, these days. But there's the thing - at the time of tweeting, she almost certainly felt justified and vindicated to do so, so was hugely ignorant, but undeservedly arrogant at the same time. The other thread that's about the driver who apparently revved their engine and glared at people daring to cross the road, whilst not seeing the person crossing in front of them, also displayed this same tendency - ignorance to be annoyed at people already crossing the road, and then arrogance to be outing such aggression (regardless of weasel words that some may attempt to foist about frustration).

In the idiot tweeter's example, the folly of it all only seemed to hit home for her, once the impact on her life was starting to become apparent. As others have said, I've never actually read anything that belies any contrition about the whole sordid matter - the only thing she seems to be sorry about is idiotically tweeing about it, and the impact it's had on her life. Yes, I get, much of the coverage was before the trial, where for legal and liability reasons, she may have wanted to be careful about what she said, but all the same, all she appears to feel sorry about is what's happened to her. As to the aggressive driver, well the awful results of her behaviour became apparent almost immediately. I don't doubt she will be haunted for life about it - but she deserves to be haunted for life about it - the other peoples lives that were ruined will never be ameliorated.

People do still need to be reminded - as somebody else has said - for all their ignorance and arrogance behind the wheel of their cars, whilst they feel empowered, and un-self-righteous, is that those cyclists that often are the target of their ire are really human beings riding bikes, that are very much more vulnerable than those behind the wheel of a car. And their vulnerability may have absolutely no connection, whatsoever, to the minority of cyclists - like drivers - who don't adhere to the rules when cycling / driving on the road.

 

[lumos2000]

Re: Plan on Cycle Deaths and Accidents, ideas and suggestion

Many of us pay road tax too, in my case the full whack !

Nobody pays road tax.

While technically true, we do pay road tax, because it is only applied to vehicles on the road. Vehicles not using the public roads do not have to pay, therefor it is in reality a tax to use the roads.

Having said that paying road tax is irrelevant to peoples rights to use the roads, I have a 66 Buick that pays no tax, I'd like to see Mondeo man arguing that off the road! ;-)

I'm not sure a busstop system would help, surely one of the good things about a bike is that you can go anywhere and anytime? but then I don't ride a bike much on the road, only when absolutely necessary.

have we given up our rights as citizens in preference for our rights as tax payers?

 

[stewlewis]

Re: Plan on Cycle Deaths and Accidents, ideas and suggestion

Wow been busy!
Let see if we can address some points, between us all we'll put things right...

I don't believe the critical mass tipping point of getting people out of cars and onto bikes in any great numbers to cause a reversal is realistic. I would like to think that a ByCycle Way would just become a route avoided by drivers as "there always seems to be cyclists on that road", much like avoiding a school street at certain times.

The climate, sucks, but we're not the worst country and others cycle all time. It'd be nice though if those who use the ByCycle during the good months think "hey we all go the same place anyway shall we share a car now the weather's bad?" To transit our mass in any efficient way is definitely not a car made for 5 and luggage with 1 person in it, trying to city park it too.

We're not gonna change the youngsters wanting a car, hell a car's ace when you're young. Some of them might also enjoy using a bike though if it's safer and more pleasant.

I have a feeling something big is going to happen and I want to be part of it.

Could this be it? A change from the ground up rather than top down costs too much policy?

......most people in city's ride at night as its to hot during the day, they stay in large groups to stay safe and the traffic is lighter

That's one of the fundamental ideas of ByCycle, safety in numbers, and skills transfer from riders to novices, all those bike2work newbies etc. The lighter traffic would hopefully be an effect of drivers not taking rat runs as they're no quicker due to the number of cyclists.
Lumus2000 - your route sounds ideal and your area is probably low on the accident rate too, you could therefore be the ideal candidate for your area to arrange the local ByCycle Stop and suggest the ByCycle Way route to the major ByCycle Hub.

It'd take local champions to organise every area of the country.

Sidenote: As a Skyride Leader on behalf on BC we plan routes of varying levels to get folks used to cycling roads and getting on a bike. Local knowledge, local people, encourages cycling. It works some of the time, for others they still are apprehensive about road riding, our ByCycle would help with that, the same way Skyride encourage participants to set up local leisure rides amongst themselves, riding in a group with support from each other.

I think you are trying to cure the symptom rather than the actual problem - which is that individuals in society have become very self-focused with lost consideration for the "old rules of society" and consideration of others.

In some way yes I am addressing the symptom. Let the big drug companies BC, TFL, Sustrans etc concentrate their millions on the cure. We'll not cure the common cold any time soon, but a decongestant and tissues help and sure make us feel more comfortable.

The proposal covers the highway code and it's correct application to our ByCycle riders. As taught be BC there's a correct way to use the roads and ride as a group. This would be shared if it ever makes it to a campaign. We'd ride to the letter and never do anything wrong. A red light jumper cyclist would be looked at by our ByCycle riders in the same way drivers curse a car doing the same.

Driver "these feckin cyclists in a group, jesus get out of the way" = publicise that's how it's done, riding like that is the law, the ByCycle are doing it right.
The group won't lose their rag like an individual might, and a driver is less likely to provoke a group.

As for twitter girl = tit, there's no changing that but that's what the police are for.

Cycling could also have positive psychological effects on 'calming city people's aggression down' . People will start to talk to each other more........

Riding as a group at a leisurely pace might be a start, see previous comments on provocation.

Just you wait for the cheery "hellos" from the ByCycle as your street is used as a ByCycle Way and not a traffic rat run.

Agree with the comments on wellbeing etc. That's one of the opportunites presented by ByCycle to get others on-side, NHS, Gov, Health bods etc.

The UK could be pioneers, if they stop the US style car centric approach.

The UK as a whole, I doubt, the Danish pioneered that solution. But we're too far gone to put that in place anytime soon.

The UK could be pioneers.

The UK cyclists could, in sharing existing infrastructure better.

I'm not sure a busstop system would help, surely one of the good things about a bike is that you can go anywhere and anytime? but then I don't ride a bike much on the road, only when absolutely necessary.

Agreed, but the ByCycle Stop system tries to help folks who tend to use the bike for travel to major destinations, a lot of people probably travel to be in the same vicinity of work around the same time.
Anytime, yes, but if the ByCycle Stop timer changes every 20 mins from XYZ to Town who can't wait to go via the stop and possibly ride to town with others.

Would you ride more on roads if you were possibly riding with others? On a route that may be quieter? to a destination where cyclists are always around and drivers expected them?


So, am I flogging a dead horse?
Would finding a solution to the 'symptom' be enough?
Can a 'cure' be found that doesn't cost billions and isn't already being worked on?

PS. Really appreciate all the responses to this, great comments and thoughts without argument and descending into a slagging match.
All replies and questions welcome.

 

[stewlewis]

Re: Plan on Cycle Deaths and Accidents, ideas and suggestion

A little tongue in cheek look at the news release from BC.

http://www.britishcycling.org.uk/campai ... -cycling-0

British Cycling welcomes Labour’s commitment to cycling

The issues that were discussed at the meeting included:

How do we improve cycle safety in London – what lessons can be learned from the fatalities on the capital’s roads?
Drivers need to expect cyclists and 'see' them. Riding as a group helps
Cyclists need to ride according to the rules of the road, knowledge sharing helps
In what ways should traffic law and enforcement change and how do we improve training and awareness?
Why change it, we all just need to abide by it, the ByCycle campaign helps
What should be our approach to HGVs and other large vehicles in terms of equipment, restrictions and improving awareness?
HGV drivers should be encouraged to avoid certain roads, but be especially aware if those roads are unavoidable, ByCycle Way routes for example
Cyclists should be aware that HGVs are a necessity and the driver just cannot see the cyclist, shared knowledge and staying out of harms way in a ByCycle group helps
How do we encourage greater levels of cycling – what are the lessons from the continent, and how do we promote, incentivise and provide opportunities to cycle for all?
ByCyle. Duh!
How do we improve cycling provision – what is the right way to plan and design cycling facilities and improve existing roads?
Those smaller minor roads used as ByCyle Ways are just fine, if you keep them clean and in good repair. The few cars that use them never go above 20mph anyway as there's always cyclists to look out for.

And for further information consult the friendly RetroBike forum, always ahead of the game.

 

[Thunderchief]

Re: Plan on Cycle Deaths and Accidents, ideas and suggestion

I'm not sure a busstop system would help, surely one of the good things about a bike is that you can go anywhere and anytime? but then I don't ride a bike much on the road, only when absolutely necessary.

Agreed, but the ByCycle Stop system tries to help folks who tend to use the bike for travel to major destinations, a lot of people probably travel to be in the same vicinity of work around the same time.
Anytime, yes, but if the ByCycle Stop timer changes every 20 mins from XYZ to Town who can't wait to go via the stop and possibly ride to town with others.

Would you ride more on roads if you were possibly riding with others? On a route that may be quieter? to a destination where cyclists are always around and drivers expected them?

.

Personally speaking I wouldn't, I don't ride on roads because my commute is too far to sensibly ride everyday on a bike. I live in the country so my experience with city commuting is limited. If I did live and work in a city I probably would commute by bike. but I doubt I would be willing to wait around for a group to form. but that's just me, impatient! ;-) It's why I cant stand buses and trains as well.

 

[Thunderchief]

Re: Plan on Cycle Deaths and Accidents, ideas and suggestion

have we given up our rights as citizens in preference for our rights as tax payers?

I'm not sure what you mean?

 

[Neil]

Re: Plan on Cycle Deaths and Accidents, ideas and suggestion

have we given up our rights as citizens in preference for our rights as tax payers?

I'm not sure what you mean?

I took it to mean that whilst cyclists have a right to use the road, and drivers driving vehicles, don't - but many, mistakenly / ignorantly believe that as they have to pay a tax for their car, that automatically grants them some right (it doesn't).

I think he was suggesting that as there seems an increasing amount of "cyclists don't even pay road tax" bobbins, and implying that cyclists have no place on the road because of this, that many - out of ignorance - seem to be in effect dismissing rights, in favour of tax paying, as a justification of what sort of road users should be allowed.