Zinn from ebay with issue's, but hey, still sweet!

[sinnerman]

Lol

I used to drink tea round Isla's house with her framebuilding partner BITD, mate used to race one their prototype frames, I just had a Fisher Paragon...

Their bikes used to get ridden, raced etc....Not designed for waffle 20 years later..

You lucky bugger....!!! And todays waffle is because they got ridden raced ETC

And still Do.

.

Oh and im sure the framebuilder you speak off is a member here too from time to time.

Im confident hes a little chuffed, Retrobikers covet and appreciate his Skills, even 20 years later.

 

[sinnerman]

Do you think having three Zinns is classed as greedy

If so I might end up being a real greedy b*****d and do something special with it....

I PLEAD with you to buy it, do your thing. YOU HAVE TOO. you cant pass this up, not given your plans for it.

I might just have mate...it would be cool

Just got to hope all this talking doesn't give people ideas...

Fair play mate.

 

[sinnerman]

Lots of different stories about 653, but this is what Terry Bill (ex-Reynolds) said:

"653 - superseded 531 pro, consists of 531 lightweight main tubes, 725 rear stays (725 is CrMo and similar in characteristics to 753)"

Funny Reynolds constructors tube guide lists it as being a MnMo tubeset like 753 and 531 with the same diameters as 753 on the stays.

http://www.equusbicycle.com/bike/reynolds/Reynolds-tubing-sizes.jpg

and I've seen that thread too but the interesting bit is:

The Reynolds timeline shows 725, 631, and 525 tubing were introduced for OEM use in 1997, while 753 was introduced nearly 20 years earlier in 1976.

The decals history pdf shows the 653 decal as having been available in 1986.

So I think the details maybe hazy in that employees head as 725 didn't even exist when 653 was launched.

Sadly i cant see your pictured post, for some reason the picture square is blank... :cry:

Im confident the 753 tubeset that arrived 20 years earlier was a Road Specific tubeset, 753ATB didnt arrive until later.

I think we are a little of course, for this thread. For the purposes of this thread, and the Zinn, i think i can confidently say, Reynolds Considered 753 as there Premium tubeset, much as it does in the same way with 953 stainless today. Christ even back then Reynolds had to certify the builder before being allowed to use it.

Had this a couple of times so I added the url too, I know 753 was tops, just saying it appears there was a bit of it in 653 too.
As for the timelines they are saying the stays are '725' not '753' and '725' didn't arrive until 1997, where 653 was available in 1986.
Also '725' is Cromo and '653' is MnMo (like 531 and 753).

I still cant see the posts, but i would suspect you are looking at a more recent spec sheet, showing tubes specs and Reynolds badges.

The info is here, i posted it. buggered if i can remember on what thread though... :?

I've killed the img link as we appear to have overrun their bandwidth . Yes it's an early 90's brochure.

Here's the html link Which just reproduces the brochure: http://www.equusbicycle.com/bike/reynolds/constructorstubeguide.htm

Anyway I've just found this on link to Bob Jackson:
http://www.worldclasscycles.com/JACKSON-HOME.htm

Which give info about a 6 series tubeset and 725

REYNOLDS 631 / 631OS info

Reynolds 631 Air Hardened tubing is a tubeset based on their 853 Air Hardened technology. This tubeset has replaced 531 as the basic material used to construct Jackson frames. The primary difference between 853 and 631 is the lack of heat treating applied to the an 853 tubeset, thus producing 631 tubing. At the present time 631 will only be available as main tubes and must be combined with either 525 or 725 stays to complete the frame. Jackson will be using 725 oval stays with these main tubes in their oversized configurations. This designation will be replacing Reynolds 653 & 731OS tubes. Tig welding is possible, however to bring 631 to its optimal strength level, brazing and the much larger heated area produced will greatly increase the finished joints ultimate strength.

So it appears that at least one builder was using 725 stays but with 631 mains and 653 is mentioned in the same section. So is this where the 653 with 725 rumour came from? Could easily be crossed wires as it would appear that 653 and 725 didn't exist at the same time and don't even share the same alloying.

Ah appreciate the link, thank you. and it can all be very confusing.

Thats a good link to Bob Jackson too, and for me, talks a lot about current tubesets.

Interestingly i found the paragragh below the one you quoted informative and worth quoting, given the Material used for the Zinn.

(quote)

Unfortunately 753 frames will never be seen in great numbers. Frame builders having access to this material is closely controlled. Builders must be certified as to their proficiency in low temperature silver brazing 753 by Reynolds. Only after having passed a structural test on their work will they be certified and sold these tubesets. Another drawback is the cost of silver brazing material as compared to that of brass, approximately $150.00 per pound compared to $9.00. Having to keep the area to be joined at a maximum of 1200 degrees, tig welders are immediately ruled out, along with their ability to mass produce 753 frames. It is primarily for these reasons that 753 frames are not offered by the bicycle giants. Highly skilled labor and time consuming hand work are not the direction large companies wish to move in.

(end Quote).

This for me compounds my point further, as this is a current website and not 20 odd years ago, when Zinn used the ATB tubeset for the first time.

 

[drcarlos]

Lots of different stories about 653, but this is what Terry Bill (ex-Reynolds) said:

"653 - superseded 531 pro, consists of 531 lightweight main tubes, 725 rear stays (725 is CrMo and similar in characteristics to 753)"

Funny Reynolds constructors tube guide lists it as being a MnMo tubeset like 753 and 531 with the same diameters as 753 on the stays.

http://www.equusbicycle.com/bike/reynolds/Reynolds-tubing-sizes.jpg

and I've seen that thread too but the interesting bit is:

The Reynolds timeline shows 725, 631, and 525 tubing were introduced for OEM use in 1997, while 753 was introduced nearly 20 years earlier in 1976.

The decals history pdf shows the 653 decal as having been available in 1986.

So I think the details maybe hazy in that employees head as 725 didn't even exist when 653 was launched.

Sadly i cant see your pictured post, for some reason the picture square is blank... :cry:

Im confident the 753 tubeset that arrived 20 years earlier was a Road Specific tubeset, 753ATB didnt arrive until later.

I think we are a little of course, for this thread. For the purposes of this thread, and the Zinn, i think i can confidently say, Reynolds Considered 753 as there Premium tubeset, much as it does in the same way with 953 stainless today. Christ even back then Reynolds had to certify the builder before being allowed to use it.

Had this a couple of times so I added the url too, I know 753 was tops, just saying it appears there was a bit of it in 653 too.
As for the timelines they are saying the stays are '725' not '753' and '725' didn't arrive until 1997, where 653 was available in 1986.
Also '725' is Cromo and '653' is MnMo (like 531 and 753).

I still cant see the posts, but i would suspect you are looking at a more recent spec sheet, showing tubes specs and Reynolds badges.

The info is here, i posted it. buggered if i can remember on what thread though... :?

I've killed the img link as we appear to have overrun their bandwidth . Yes it's an early 90's brochure.

Here's the html link Which just reproduces the brochure: http://www.equusbicycle.com/bike/reynolds/constructorstubeguide.htm

Anyway I've just found this on link to Bob Jackson:
http://www.worldclasscycles.com/JACKSON-HOME.htm

Which give info about a 6 series tubeset and 725

REYNOLDS 631 / 631OS info

Reynolds 631 Air Hardened tubing is a tubeset based on their 853 Air Hardened technology. This tubeset has replaced 531 as the basic material used to construct Jackson frames. The primary difference between 853 and 631 is the lack of heat treating applied to the an 853 tubeset, thus producing 631 tubing. At the present time 631 will only be available as main tubes and must be combined with either 525 or 725 stays to complete the frame. Jackson will be using 725 oval stays with these main tubes in their oversized configurations. This designation will be replacing Reynolds 653 & 731OS tubes. Tig welding is possible, however to bring 631 to its optimal strength level, brazing and the much larger heated area produced will greatly increase the finished joints ultimate strength.

So it appears that at least one builder was using 725 stays but with 631 mains and 653 is mentioned in the same section. So is this where the 653 with 725 rumour came from? Could easily be crossed wires as it would appear that 653 and 725 didn't exist at the same time and don't even share the same alloying.

Ah appreciate the link, thank you. and it can all be very confusing.

Thats a good link to Bob Jackson too, and for me, talks a lot about current tubesets.

Interestingly i found the paragragh below the one you quoted informative and worth quoting, given the Material used for the Zinn.

(quote)

Unfortunately 753 frames will never be seen in great numbers. Frame builders having access to this material is closely controlled. Builders must be certified as to their proficiency in low temperature silver brazing 753 by Reynolds. Only after having passed a structural test on their work will they be certified and sold these tubesets. Another drawback is the cost of silver brazing material as compared to that of brass, approximately $150.00 per pound compared to $9.00. Having to keep the area to be joined at a maximum of 1200 degrees, tig welders are immediately ruled out, along with their ability to mass produce 753 frames. It is primarily for these reasons that 753 frames are not offered by the bicycle giants. Highly skilled labor and time consuming hand work are not the direction large companies wish to move in.

(end Quote).

This for me compounds my point further, as this is a current website and not 20 odd years ago, when Zinn used the ATB tubeset for the first time.

I saw that too and then saw the thickness of the main tubes and man they are super thin, combined with the heat treatment they would be hard to braze even a low temps as they would easily distort and you blow holes (I quite often do this when miging thin mild steel tubes as I'm crap) in them if not highly skilled.
The 753 stays though are no thinner than 531 which could very well account for the them being sold with 531 mains and being brazed normally, which is low temp compared to tiging anyway.

I think found your post here 3/4 of he way down: http://www.retrobike.co.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?t=188154&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=195

Interestingly 653 is mentioned in the tubes that Reynolds produce and they talk about 3 grades of steel and numbering but gives no details. Then then in the section where they compare properties it's not there at all (but journos are not known for being factually accurate are they anyway).
It only seems the throw more questions as does the fact that Merkx retired in '77 and 653 came out in the 80's. He was however making bikes so it's not inconceivable that he asked Reynolds for a special tubeset for the bikes he was making but that's just me speculating.
Maybe I'll mail Reynolds and see if they can offer anything (I need to get some late 80's 531 AT decals for my Kili anyway).

 

[sylus]

Lol

I used to drink tea round Isla's house with her framebuilding partner BITD, mate used to race one their prototype frames, I just had a Fisher Paragon...

Their bikes used to get ridden, raced etc....Not designed for waffle 20 years later..

Dear chap, waffling is what we do best

 

[sinnerman]

Lots of different stories about 653, but this is what Terry Bill (ex-Reynolds) said:

"653 - superseded 531 pro, consists of 531 lightweight main tubes, 725 rear stays (725 is CrMo and similar in characteristics to 753)"

Funny Reynolds constructors tube guide lists it as being a MnMo tubeset like 753 and 531 with the same diameters as 753 on the stays.

http://www.equusbicycle.com/bike/reynolds/Reynolds-tubing-sizes.jpg

and I've seen that thread too but the interesting bit is:

The Reynolds timeline shows 725, 631, and 525 tubing were introduced for OEM use in 1997, while 753 was introduced nearly 20 years earlier in 1976.

The decals history pdf shows the 653 decal as having been available in 1986.

So I think the details maybe hazy in that employees head as 725 didn't even exist when 653 was launched.

Sadly i cant see your pictured post, for some reason the picture square is blank... :cry:

Im confident the 753 tubeset that arrived 20 years earlier was a Road Specific tubeset, 753ATB didnt arrive until later.

I think we are a little of course, for this thread. For the purposes of this thread, and the Zinn, i think i can confidently say, Reynolds Considered 753 as there Premium tubeset, much as it does in the same way with 953 stainless today. Christ even back then Reynolds had to certify the builder before being allowed to use it.

Had this a couple of times so I added the url too, I know 753 was tops, just saying it appears there was a bit of it in 653 too.
As for the timelines they are saying the stays are '725' not '753' and '725' didn't arrive until 1997, where 653 was available in 1986.
Also '725' is Cromo and '653' is MnMo (like 531 and 753).

I still cant see the posts, but i would suspect you are looking at a more recent spec sheet, showing tubes specs and Reynolds badges.

The info is here, i posted it. buggered if i can remember on what thread though... :?

I've killed the img link as we appear to have overrun their bandwidth . Yes it's an early 90's brochure.

Here's the html link Which just reproduces the brochure: http://www.equusbicycle.com/bike/reynolds/constructorstubeguide.htm

Anyway I've just found this on link to Bob Jackson:
http://www.worldclasscycles.com/JACKSON-HOME.htm

Which give info about a 6 series tubeset and 725

REYNOLDS 631 / 631OS info

Reynolds 631 Air Hardened tubing is a tubeset based on their 853 Air Hardened technology. This tubeset has replaced 531 as the basic material used to construct Jackson frames. The primary difference between 853 and 631 is the lack of heat treating applied to the an 853 tubeset, thus producing 631 tubing. At the present time 631 will only be available as main tubes and must be combined with either 525 or 725 stays to complete the frame. Jackson will be using 725 oval stays with these main tubes in their oversized configurations. This designation will be replacing Reynolds 653 & 731OS tubes. Tig welding is possible, however to bring 631 to its optimal strength level, brazing and the much larger heated area produced will greatly increase the finished joints ultimate strength.

So it appears that at least one builder was using 725 stays but with 631 mains and 653 is mentioned in the same section. So is this where the 653 with 725 rumour came from? Could easily be crossed wires as it would appear that 653 and 725 didn't exist at the same time and don't even share the same alloying.

Ah appreciate the link, thank you. and it can all be very confusing.

Thats a good link to Bob Jackson too, and for me, talks a lot about current tubesets.

Interestingly i found the paragragh below the one you quoted informative and worth quoting, given the Material used for the Zinn.

(quote)

Unfortunately 753 frames will never be seen in great numbers. Frame builders having access to this material is closely controlled. Builders must be certified as to their proficiency in low temperature silver brazing 753 by Reynolds. Only after having passed a structural test on their work will they be certified and sold these tubesets. Another drawback is the cost of silver brazing material as compared to that of brass, approximately $150.00 per pound compared to $9.00. Having to keep the area to be joined at a maximum of 1200 degrees, tig welders are immediately ruled out, along with their ability to mass produce 753 frames. It is primarily for these reasons that 753 frames are not offered by the bicycle giants. Highly skilled labor and time consuming hand work are not the direction large companies wish to move in.

(end Quote).

This for me compounds my point further, as this is a current website and not 20 odd years ago, when Zinn used the ATB tubeset for the first time.

I saw that too and then saw the thickness of the main tubes and man they are super thin, combined with the heat treatment they would be hard to braze even a low temps as they would easily distort and you blow holes (I quite often do this when miging thin mild steel tubes as I'm crap) in them if not highly skilled.
The 753 stays though are no thinner than 531 which could very well account for the them being sold with 531 mains and being brazed normally, which is low temp compared to tiging anyway.

I think found your post here 3/4 of he way down: http://www.retrobike.co.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?t=188154&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=195

Interestingly 653 is mentioned in the tubes that Reynolds produce and they talk about 3 grades of steel and numbering but gives no details. Then then in the section where they compare properties it's not there at all (but journos are not known for being factually accurate are they anyway).
It only seems the throw more questions as does the fact that Merkx retired in '77 and 653 came out in the 80's. He was however making bikes so it's not inconceivable that he asked Reynolds for a special tubeset for the bikes he was making but that's just me speculating.
Maybe I'll mail Reynolds and see if they can offer anything (I need to get some late 80's 531 AT decals for my Kili anyway).

Thats a great article and a bloody good summary of it but even this info is Post Zinn Debut with the tubing specs. From memory its an early 90s review,

I hoped to find you the early tubeset chart, which was later 80s. I shall Keep looking for you.

 

[drcarlos]

here?: http://www.equusbicycle.com/bike/reynolds/reynolds.htm

Doesn't offer much really as what it seems to come down to is alloying details and heat treatment specifics and I reckon these will be confidential.
Interestingly I use a specific heat treated steel alloy (actually Cromo) for the rear axle on my race mower called EN24T http://kvsteel.co.uk/steel/EN24T.html as it gives a bit of flex but it can also be machined for very hard wearing keyways, whic means it has lasted me 6 years where other snap after a couple of years.

 

[sinnerman]

Best i can do for a minute.......

(quote)
....The 753 tubeset was the first heat-treated tubeset in the race bicycle industry, based on the same alloy as 531. Used mainly in lugged and fillet-brazed framesets, Reynolds implemented a Certfication procedure for builders who wished to use the tubing, as it helped builders understand the requirement to avoid overheating the thin wall tubes. Most builders used silver-brazing for the fabrication of frames, due to the low melting point, so that 753 tubing was not annealed inadvertantly,

753 is now only available to special order and subject to a high minimum quantity due to raw material constraints.

(end quote)

perhaps it was my original post, that metioned 531.. :?

 

[SiRvInO]

ah.....

AH....

Nice you tube link, I got married there..'cotton tree drive'...

Lol

I used to drink tea round Isla's house with her framebuilding partner BITD, mate used to race one their prototype frames, I just had a Fisher Paragon...

Their bikes used to get ridden, raced etc....Not designed for waffle 20 years later..

You lucky bugger....!!! And todays waffle is because they got ridden raced ETC

And still Do.

.

Oh and im sure the framebuilder you speak off is a member here too from time to time.

Im confident hes a little chuffed, Retrobikers covet and appreciate his Skills, even 20 years later.

 

[suburbanreuben]

So who was this Zinn fella? I believe that Zinn cycles were short lived. If Zinn was 753 certified, where did he learn his craft, and where did he go post Zinn? Is he anything to do with this outfit?

http://zinncycles.com/Zinn/index.php/archives/5