The dodgy world of used ("vintage") bike parts

[American Friend]

Coming to the end of a retro build, and I see a pattern emerging about the parts I've had to buy over the past few months:

- A NOS Campag NR rear mech that turned out to have a lot of play in the upper pivot. A factory second?
- "Excellent" Campag NR front mech with bent stuck adjusting screws
- "Excellent" Campag NR seatpost that was 0.4mm smaller than stamped diameter and a lot more scratched up than expecting
- "VGC" Campag NR brakeset that looked like it was thrown together fom spare parts and still missing the serrated washers, lever grub screw, and had 2 useless blocks in 2 very corroded shoes.
- "VGC" Campag Record front hub with a loose cup
- "Good" 3TTT stem that had been cut down by around an inch and was very scratched up not just on the quill but also on the top of the stem

All of these bits and bobs came from "professional" or semi-professional traders. The only bit that was accurately described and didn't have any bad surprises was another 3TTT stem that I got from somebody on eBay who didn't seem to be a regular trader, probably just some ordinary bloke like me with some leftover parts he didn't need nor wanted to stockpile.

You have to laugh at it otherwise this stuff will drive you crazy.

 

[shawnb]

I'm sure most of us have been there. Some sellers get round it by saying 'personal opinions on condition vary so make your own judgement' :roll: There's a few parts in my collection that I have two of simply because the first part simply wasn't as described.
Some of the best and most accurately described parts i've bought are from here and lfgss.....

Shawn.

 

[American Friend]

I'm sure you're right about buying on here as it's a good community and the forum is well moderated. I won't make any comments about lfgss because I don't think it's appropriate to slag off another forum.

 

[firedfromthecircus]

- A NOS Campag NR rear mech that turned out to have a lot of play in the upper pivot. A factory second?

I was just thinking about this today.

Where is all the NOS stuff coming from? How much is genuine unsold stock and how much is factory seconds, stuff that didn't pass QC or some other dodgy product?
Of course, no warranty now so who cares if a load of stuff that should have been scrapped comes back out the warehouse to be sold as NOS now that there is a bit of money in old bike parts!

 

[Citoyen du monde]

I have been buying and occasionally selling vintage parts for a long time and in over 20 years I don't believe I have had that many problems. I believe that you therefore need to refine your search and buying skills. Wherever possible always buy with the part physically in front of you. Where possible, buy from people who collect themselves and are not only sellers and ask them why they are selling the part. When not buying in person, always insist on clear photos and if there is any doubt ask for clarification or always expect things to be the worst possible case. When buying online or by phone always expect the worst, which does not mean that should not consider teh deal, but simply that you need to keep this in mind when determining the price. In fact many of my best deals have been sight unseen purchases where I paid a fraction of the price that I would have paid had I seen the parts.

- A NOS Campag NR rear mech that turned out to have a lot of play in the upper pivot. A factory second?

Was the derailleur in the box? If not in the box, why not? This is always a red flag when you find a NOS part that is not in the box. I would rather buy a little used part than one NOS that is no longer in its original packaging. I am however somewhat puzzled by your description of "a lot of play". What you perceive as excess play could well be paint on the dropout or something similar. In fact it is far more likely to be related to the dropout than to the derailleur.

- "Excellent" Campag NR front mech with bent stuck adjusting screws

These screws can readily be straightened and it is very rare that they are permanently stuck. I have friends who have had very good luck using ultrasound cleaners to unstuck these screws. Furthermore, bent screws can readily be seen in photos. As a buyer I always insist on photos of the parts. It is also in the best interest of the seller to provide photos, because there isn't much to prevent the unscrupulous buyers from claiming that a damaged art that they already owned was the part that they just purchased (this has happened to me as a seller; however with the photos, I was able to prove that the damaged part in question was not the one sold by myself).

- "Excellent" Campag NR seatpost that was 0.4mm smaller than stamped diameter and a lot more scratched up than expecting

It is my experience that Campagnolo seatposts tend to be smaller than the indicated size, which also makes sense insofar as they must fit into the indicated size, so to find a 27,2 measuring 27,0 is not overly uncommon. 0,4 mm does seem to be on the extreme side. I would remeasure your post and see whether the diameter is the same throughout or if it has been ground down somewhere. As mentioned previously, with good photos or when buying in person the effective amount of scratches can be correctly judged.

- "VGC" Campag NR brakeset that looked like it was thrown together fom spare parts and still missing the serrated washers, lever grub screw, and had 2 useless blocks in 2 very corroded shoes.

The serrated washers were not originally supplied with the brakes in the 60's. They were added in the 70's. So if an older set of brakes, their absence might be justified. When speaking of the grub screws, I take you are speaking of those that bite down on the brake lever pivot in such a manner that the pivot cannot slide out. While it is indeed far better to have these, their absence does not make the levers unserviceable or unusable. These are also not parts that I expect anybody to check for insofar as one does not normally ever touch them (in fact apart from the case of replacement of the lever blades, there is never a reason to touch them). For brake pads, I have recovered many a pad by simply filing away the oxidized outside layer of rubber, getting to the underlying rubber that has not been exposed to decades of atmospheric agents. In fact, nobody should ever expect any brake pad that is a few decades old to work properly as is. As far as the corroded shoes, Campagnolo chrome is very frequently such that with some very fine steel wool they are fully recoverable. Again, with proper photos or in person purchasing, the lack of serrated washer and corroded brake shoes would readily be visible.

- "VGC" Campag Record front hub with a loose cup

This would be a first for me. I take that you are describing the press-fit race inside the hub. What makes you think it is a loose cup?

- "Good" 3TTT stem that had been cut down by around an inch and was very scratched up not just on the quill but also on the top of the stem

Most sellers that I know who rate a stem as good mean serviceable at best, which seems to be the case here. Again buying in person or with proper photos would have avoided this situation.

Lastly, remember that there is generally a good reason why a part is still available in NOS condition a few decades after it no longer is produced. It could be because it was totally superseded by newer and better parts (i.e. tubular rims of the late 80's and 90's, pedals for toe clips in the late 80's), or were oddball parts that nobody ever really wanted (i.e. 24 hole hubs); don't ever be in a rush to buy parts and always ask your friends first, they will always be your best sources.

 

[American Friend]

Cit, is this supposed to be helpful? You start off saying, "Wherever possible always buy with the part physically in front of you." And then a couple of sentences later totally contradict yourself by concluding, "many of my best deals have been sight unseen purchases where I paid a fraction of the price."

Then you go on to make all sorts of baseless assumptions. I'll just correct a few of them for your benefit. I doubt anyone else could give a toss.

The rear mech was indeed NOS. There was not the slightest sign of usage, and even the original tab was still on the top pivot bolt. The play I mention is between the pivot bolt and the mech body. It has nothing to do with the frame or how the mech screws into the dropout.

I've measured the seatpost with a very accurate electronic vernier caliper. The seatpost is 0.4mm smaller than the stamped diameter.

The hub has a loose cup.

None of these problems are visible from pictures, nor would you or anyone else spot them if you had the item at hand. The mech play could only be discovered after fitting the mech to the frame. The seatpost diameter could only be checked with a vernier caliper, which you would be unlikely to do if the stamped diameter was clearly marked. And the loose cup could only be seen after disassembling the hub and removing all of the grease. It became apparent when building the wheel. I thought it was just the cones that needed adjustment.

Maybe I am just unlucky, but I suspect, as an earler poster said, that many of us have been here before. There are a lot of dodgy parts out there, and even old hands like myself can get caught out, no matter how much reasonable precaution you take. Sadly, many of people regularly selling this stuff are thieving knaves and scoundrels.

 

[fiks]

I suppose technically "NOS" is not the same as perfect mint condition, but just unused and new. You could have a part that has been fitted and used very slightly and it wouldn't be NOS anymore but it would be in as new condition when it's on the bike.

When buying something not in person, you have have to trust the seller to point out any faults, or if they didn't know about them, then you have to rely on them being honest enough to take it back and refund you. I understand a commercial seller has to refund your cost of sending it back but I not sure about a private seller. Oh and then there is the distance selling regulations which say you have the right to cancel the order and/or send it back for a full refund (inc P&P) within a certain period of time, again I'm not sure how it would apply to private sellers.

"Good" 3TTT stem that had been cut down by around an inch and was very scratched up not just on the quill but also on the top of the stem

If the seller knew about it being cut down then they should have pointed it out, eg "good condition but cut down and works perfectly". Although I wouldn't used "good" for something heavily scratched up, so perhaps "poor cosmetically, works OK but has been cut down".


Re the loose pivot, it's possible that the mech was put together from spare parts. Or maybe it's just one that was left unsold in a bike shop because people check it before buying so chose another one instead.

As mentioned it's best to avoid the traders/dealers/bike splitters who are doing it for the money.

 

[wriggles]

I'm with American Friend on the "NOS but no its not really thing". For me, for something to be NOS it has to be near perfect with maybe some very minor storage marks ie REALLY light scuffs. I do buy and sell a fair few bits and pieces - mainly modern MTB stuff as i'm always changing my mind :roll: and I always try and describe fairly, and always offer a refund. Is that so difficult?

I have only had 2 returns, and that was due to my silly mistake describing the item incorrectly

I do tend to buy from sellers who have a returns policy as it means they are prepared to stand by their products, and forces fair description. And I'm cautious about buying from abroad due to the lack of easy return as well.

Oh and agree this forum is excellent because of the excellent moderation. I really dont understand why other Commercial forums in the UK cant follow this model.

 

[American Friend]

I'm convinced the NOS rear mech must have been a factory second. I am quite familiar with old Record parts, having used them since the early 1970s. I have no idea if the seller was aware of this particular fault or not. I can live with the fault, but I know from experience that the play isn't right.

The seller of the seatpost was skeptical, dragged his feet about exchanging it or a refund, but now promises to offer a refund if he cannot replace it with another one that is the right size. This was an eBay purchase, so it was easy to resolve.

Likewise, the dodgy hub also came from eBay. This seller was also initially difficult, but in the end, much to his credit, he replaced the hub with another that was fine. I suspect he got the hub from a wheel he'd stripped and noticed there was play but thought, like me, that it must be the cones.

The brakeset and the stem came from another professional trader who trades mostly from his own website. He refunded the cut-down stem without any questions, but never replied to my request for the missing bits from the brakeset.

The front mech I sorted myself and purchased replacement screws from Nigel Scott, who has always been excellent. So they're not all a bunch of crooks.

 

[Russell]

I once saw something described as "NOS until I fitted it.", which I thought was brilliant.