Some thing about the titanium frames

[utahdog2003]

Sorry guys, but you are on your own if you think that an imported ti frame is of the same quality as an american frame. I'll continue to hold that generalization until it's proven innacurate. In my experience, the russian and chinese frames I've seen pale in comparison to the american produced models from the usual suspects. Even my discount closeout TST has much better welds than any Airborne I've ever seen. Remember also that any welder with a stready hand and a jig can draw an even bead with practice, but the real test is the welder who can start and stop the same bead in the same place without getting sloppy ('full circle'), and welding an area of many junctions like the seat clamp or bottom bracket raises issues with heat as well as bead accuracy.

There's a reason that a Rivendell is not the same pricepoint as a Bleriot, and it's not all labor rates...the products are just not the same. I would expect it to be reasonable to assume the same holds true in this Ti debate.

 

[utahdog2003]

FWIW,...

The tubing from Nova that is used as an example is a Chinese mill Ti and is highly irregular in diameter, shape and wall thickness. I checked out a few batches of the stuff and decided the quality control was not to my standard, sent it all back. It is NOT representative of the cost of Ti material used in the US.

The work force in these markets are grossly underpaid, receive little to no benefits, and are probably the most overworked/exploited workers in the world. The result is an inferior product...but a cheap one for you. Personally, I'd rather pay four times the cost and have their quality of life and the resultant product improve, not Racism, just reality.

exactly. Very well put, and a valuable perspective.

 

[Mr752]

Well said Rody!
An insight into your overheads illustrates what "HANDMADE" is all about and what you pay for.

 

[Elev12k]

The Van Nicolas frames look aestheticly poorly welded and in various details overdesigned, but the later is a personal opinion.

 

[rody]

Mike,

I agree, the masses will grasp the cheap product every time...regardless of the impact of that decision.

To illustrate the point further;

I had a large US based bicycle company request my LUV Handles on three of their models for the '09 line. In speaking with them, their intent is to have the design built in China, however, the complexity of the fabrication process is beyond the ability of the companies over there and we have had to change the design and ultimately the look and performance to accommodate.

The bar will cost them 6 dollars to have it produced in Asia...that's less than a quarter of the cost of my raw materials for a Chinese finished product.

More importantly, it will be the second most expensive part on the bike, only behind the frame at a whopping 12 bucks. As a side note, this is the same factory that is doing the YETI frames

In a global market, I can not even compete with the Chinese on my own product!

Pretty sad.

rody

 

[shovelon]

Mike,



The bar will cost them 6 dollars to have it produced in Asia...that's less than a quarter of the cost of my raw materials for a Chinese finished product.

In a global market, I can not even compete with the Chinese on my own product!

Pretty sad.

rody

You are so right Rody. Even with the shift in currancy rates, Chinese raw goods are artificially and unfairly low.

Terry

 

[Sithlord]

'Quality and craftmanship is not cheap'

 

[Peperbek]

It think that a well made US Ti frame justifies a price of 2000+ Just look at the cost of raw tubing and all the labour that goes into it before you have frame which is straight and made with quality tubing (very important). So I totally agree with Rody. In fact I was surprised by the (low) labour cost per hour which he 'charges' per frame.

I have recently been in China and have seen some factories. In one factory they made high quality German parts. You will not believe in what kind of (bad) conditions goods are made over there. The "craftsmen" had one German supervisor who overlooked the total production. It is very difficult to have a good quality control over there. Rest asure, these parts were not for the bike business

On the other hand, the wheel keeps turning because dind't we all say the same ten years ago about Taiwan?
Well, when we see the (in my opnion) good quality of the bikeparts and frames (my wife currently rides a new Taiwan made Yeti which is very good quality, even when you compare this to US made Yeti form some years ago, from which I had a few) that are now made over there than you could say that this can also happen to China within a few years. But personally I think China has a long way to go and from what I have seen is that they are in for the short run. Make a easy buck now and who cares about tomorrow.

For now I still favour US frames and US parts. Because it looks so much nicer to have a nice Wound up seatpost in your ti frame knowing that it's made by Advanced composites which also makes things like this....
http://www.advancedcomposites.com/defense.aspx
I think that these guys know what they are doing. That's why their seatposts and forks are so good.

 

[scant]

I dont think theres any real dissagreement on this thread

far east has waay cheaper production costs (& I'm well aware of certain companys pricing rody & others )

generally the production quality is getting better, & from what i've heard it'll compete in a few more years, but currently theres no eastern company capable of the ultra high end quality (& yet again no racist overtones)

all of this might sound very familiar to owners of the specialized anniversary handbook, theres a quote section at the front. i think it was joe breeze but i'll check that, said something along the lines of "when I saw the first stumpjumper I realised you could get quality parts for considerably less from the far east" & this was over 25yrs ago

hava good wkend people

 

[Anthony]

There is some confusion here between two completely different issues - hand-made vs production line and the completely different question of US-built vs Chinese-built.

I hold to my belief that some of what I read (not here, just generally) about the allegedly automatic superiority of US-built over far east-built has an element of implied racism within it. My practical example is that I have never seen anything out of the far east to come anywhere near rivalling the levels of artistry in a Yo Eddy paint job – BUT the truth is that a lot of them rust and very sadly have had to be repainted. The artistry was great, but they shouldn’t have rusted. My 97 Kilauea (built at the Giant factory in Taiwan?) is not very artistic but the frame is dead straight and has no trace of rust anywhere on it after 11 years. But similarly classic Ferraris were nowhere near as well built as Toyotas, etc etc.

I think Rody explains brilliantly the position of the hand-builder, who presumably has to pay hugely more for his materials because he orders in relatively low volumes from tube dealers that also deal in relatively low volumes. And yet he has to deliver the highest possible quality to his buyer, because that’s what people know him for. If I was his business adviser I would say $2,200 is too cheap for what he offers, and many inferior builders charge more.

But that doesn’t mean to say that the number of people both willing and able to pay more than $2,200 for a cycle frame is enough to keep a large number of US builders going. A market won’t pay more because the builder’s costs are high. A market will only pay what it wants to pay, and that’s why a lot of production of all sorts of things, not just bikes, goes to the far east.