Some thing about the titanium frames

[scant]

So is it true that general statements cannot be made about Ti products from various sources? eg US is good, Chinese is not so good...

I certainly hope what i have read in the past is not based in racism, i hope (believe?) the authors were better people than that :?

I agree that anyone is capable of producing something to the highest standard given the best materials, training etc. But i'm really looking at generalisations ( :shock: ). I'd just like to understand the facts behind why BITD a Ti frame being from Russia, or more recently from China, is considered to be an inferior product.

I think a lot has to do with marketing and the prestige attached to certain brands... In which case is it just naivety? I certainly think the R word is far too emotive to be applied in such situations, but perhaps i am the one who is naive

racism? I dont know why this has been brought up? certainly no intention meant. as a welshman whos spent 1/3 of my life in england i'm frankly sick of racism..

I dont think you can ever group 1 country as better at producing than another. my previous US built titus titanium wasnt exceptionally well made in my eyes, but i've had other US built ti frames that are the pinnacle of bike construction .. same goes for taiwan, russia & everywhere else

in the past certainly more high end frames were made in the US & more mass produced in the far east & this is probabily a tough stigma to drop

 

[Anthony]

certainly you don’t find many framebuilders using Sandvic.

I’d guess it was built in a modern facility and you’re going to get a pretty good frame..

sandvik/ TST was/is a massive frame builder in its own right.

Nice guess I wish I could find the OZ mag which had a feature of the "Kore" operation. one staff person holding a stem in 1 hand & a drill in the other hand counter-sinking the stem bolt holes

I'm not dissing far east (shimano dominance anyone!) but like everywhere else the quality varies massively, so I'm not quite ready to jump onto the wholesale far east ti love-train just yet... just my 2p

hell, no matter where its made in the end its all marketing

I'm not sure I know about TST, but a lot of people say Sandvic used to build the Hei Hei and the King Kahuna - they were built by what is now called Ti Sport of Kennewick, which I think used to be part of Sandvic Corp but isn't any longer. TiS is a tube dealer that also builds things in ti and they have a long list of makes that they have built cycle frames for, not just Kona. But I can't see that they still make frames for any of those makes and although cdngrimpeur says they're still making frames, they didn't reply to my sales enquiry and their own-brand frames were being sold off cheap on eBay so I have my doubts. Certainly the new Kona KK, if it ever arrives, is a Russian-built frame.

Obviously not everything that comes out of China is good, but to many people the price of an American-built ti frame is a sick joke and something like a Van Nicholas/Airborne is their only option. The fact that a company like Kona is now sourcing from Russia shows how the market conditions have changed.

 

[scant]

I need to check my history here too, but sandvic used to make a LOT for other companies including kona & including 1 of my faves the rare yeti ti (thats official off chris conroy). I believe TST was a later offshoot of sandvic.

 

[Anthony]

I need to check my history here too, but sandvic used to make a LOT for other companies including kona & including 1 of my faves the rare yeti ti (thats official off chris conroy). I believe TST was a later offshoot of sandvic.

You know way more than me, there's no doubt about that.

Could TST stand for Titanium Sport Tubing perhaps? TiS say "Since 1989, the highly skilled men and women of TiSport have been fabricating road, mountain, cyclocross, triathlon and recumbent bike frames for a number of foreign and domestic customers such as Bachetta, Bontrager, Colorado Cyclist, Dean, Diamondback, Fuji, Gary Fisher, GT, Ibis, Kona, Marin, Mongoose Pro, Sampson and Yeti." So maybe its the same company, but as I say I couldn't see that any of those brands still markets frames built by TiS. No doubt TiS are really good, but times is 'ard for folk like them in the face of competition from Russia and China.

 

[Tallpaul]

racism? I dont know why this has been brought up? certainly no intention meant. as a welshman whos spent 1/3 of my life in england i'm frankly sick of racism..

I took this quote:

it’s racist nonsense to say that Americans weld better than Chinese.

and wondered if the reason for the stigma attached to far east frames was because some believed the welders were incapable of welding to high enough standards.

I don't actually think anyone here believes that, and certainly nobody has said it either.

Anyhoo, it's way off my original point:

All other things being equal, is the quality of material going in to mass produced Ti products significantly less than the more 'boutique' items and if so, what differance does it make?

 

[stevet1]

I think some of the statements about dodgy chinese ti parts is because some of them are not very well designed, they're just cheap parts made out of ti with little design behind them.

And I own a setavento, bolx didn't know they'd stopped trading. Guess that lifetime warranty and 1/2 price crash replacement ain't worth much now :cry:

 

[Peperbek]

TST is for Titanium Sport Technologies. This is the former Sandvik Ti manufacturer.
A few of the former owners of Sandik cashed after a manangement buy out. That's why the new name.
You can look at titaniumsports.com
Had e few frames made by them, perfect. Feel free to order the MTB frame they are selling now on their website. It's a good frame for the money.

 

[scant]

yeh thats the right company.

& yup you're right, it takes some conviction to lay down at least several hundred more for a US built frame over far east (obviously theres still people prepared to shell out!)
from what i've seen thus far theres no ultra high end quality coming from far east just yet (as opposed to eriksen, seven, IF, steve potts, vanilla, etc etc outta the states) but thats just a question of time. 10years or less & chinas gonna be close if not equal..

i follow the yeti board on mtbr.com quite a lot (this is on topic!) & theres massive discussion there regarding outsourcing of yeti from golden to taiwan (the old steel parker era lovers will be in uproar!!)
from what i've seen the quality has dropped only slightly, but the price has dropped quite a lot. for most people thats a perfect compromise

 

[rody]

FWIW,

Customer cost for a Groovy Ti frame is 2200.00.

My cost, for materials only, on my ti frames is $1128.00 for US mill 3/2.5 Ti tubing, 6/4 dropouts, and fiddly-bits like cable guides and bottom brackets.

This does not include the cost of the argon, filler wire, thoriated electrodes, special tig cups, ultrasonic cleaning, chemical prep or finish material, which adds another 280.00 dollars to the mix.

Ti is unbelievably hard on machine equipment such as cutters, saws, drill bits, etc so I figure in tool replacement costs per Ti frame at 75.00.

Now let's factor in the consumables of the business; electricity, natural gas heat, internet, phone, office supplies, building rent, insurance (100.00 per frame), and marketing. What do you think is fair...200?, never did figure this all out, makes me sick to do it :?

So total cost per Ti frame to me is $1683.00...and that is before you figure in the 38 hours of labor to build the sucker.

So, I am making 517.00 per Ti frame, or about 13.60 an hour.

That profit does not include the cost of the machinery, welding equipment, necessary non-consumable tooling such as heat sinks, purge fittings, fixtures, etc...

Madjh brings up an excellent topic, but his experience and understanding of the process is too incomplete to paint a detailed cost picture.

How do they do it so cheap in China and Russia?

I posted a very detailed reply in his last Cheap ti thread. Are all non-US ti products dangerous and bad? Of course not, but you must consider all the factors that go into the product...

A few more notes;

The tubing from Nova that is used as an example is a Chinese mill Ti and is highly irregular in diameter, shape and wall thickness. I checked out a few batches of the stuff and decided the quality control was not to my standard, sent it all back. It is NOT representative of the cost of Ti material used in the US.

The work force in these markets are grossly underpaid, receive little to no benefits, and are probably the most overworked/exploited workers in the world. The result is an inferior product...but a cheap one for you. Personally, I'd rather pay four times the cost and have their quality of life and the resultant product improve, not Racism, just reality.

Quality control is secondary to production of mass quantities.

Fabrication is completed without an understanding of the design process or product...workers that understand WHAT the component is, WHY it is designed like it is, and HOW it is to be used will produce a product of higher quality and tolerance than someone who is simply placed on a machine and told to duplicate pieces.

This subject strikes a sore spot with me, as the consumer market often has a mob mentality...easily riled and swayed with poor information and ready to strike against anything/anyone that is not with them.

Take time to educate yourself and do some research then share accurate information...all will benefit.

cheers,

rody

 

[scant]

nice summary rody & I agree

however! bottom line is the price! I mentioned the appaling kore stem practise working conditions earlier, average consumer in the west (& this isnt meant racially either) generally assume the far eastern workers on less money, & generally dont care diddy-squat about buying from abroad, affecting their own countrys economy by buying offshore, enviromental concerns (check out chris king) or anything else! if they can get similiar for cheaper elsewhere they'll go for cheaper nearly every time.

I'm not saying I agree or even subscribe to this, I'm the biggest ever sucka for marketing & will happily plonk down higher sums as I hope I'm getting the best & every conceivable riding/speed advantage or nicety I can get!