Silly TDF questions

[daj]

Still wet behind the ears watching Road racing and have some questions that make me scratch my head and will probably make me look a prat :?

1. When sprinting I understand drafting etc , So for example the HTC train which seem to master it off to a tee, Why wouldnt you as a opposing rider tag on the back of Cav and use him as your lead out man? the final yards always seem pretty text book it would make sense to be thinking when everyone is sorting themselves out "where is Cav" and latch on?

2. Is Renshaw really not quick enough to go for it himself? :?

3. I dont understand drafting when climbing? Are they still going quick enough climbing to feel the benefits of using less energy tucking in behind? And again if a team still has 3 riders pulling their GC man up the hill , wouldnt you just tag on the end? :?

This year has been a belter!!

 

[Johnsqual]

Sprinting, Drafting etc

Hey,

Interesting questions. I think it's a pity there's not much discussion of tactics
in the media, e.g. the BBC. Even in Belgium where the coverage is much better, there's still a bit too much on "is Cavendish the best sprinter ever?", spectacular crashes, etc and not so much on tactics.

I'm no expert at all, so maybe someone can give better answers but my thoughts are:

1) Drafting in sprints: I think they do do this. You'll often see someone like Petacchi, Greipel etc on Cav's wheel. Isn't it one of the jobs of the team to keep opposing cyclists off their own sprinter's wheel?

2) Can Renshaw go for the sprint himself? Cav's specialism is to put on a massive burst of speed for a very short distance, as little as 200m and probably not more than 500m. That's a very distinctive skill, so I guess not many others can do it. Plus Renshaw has to do the "dirty work" of keeping Cav's route clear so he couldn't focus on the sprint itself. And it wouldn't be good for team spirit if he did try to poach Cav's victory (look what happened with Greipel and Gilbert!)
BTW - one of the funniest moments in the tour:
Little kid to Greipel: "Can I have your autograph?
Greipel: "Yeah, sure"
Little Kid: "Thanks Mr Gilbert"
Greipel (pulls face like bulldog chewing a wasp) "I'm not Gilbert".

3) Drafting on climbs: I dunno. On the one hand, it's pretty windy up there so maybe it still helps. On the other hand, climbing is partly about being able to make and react to sudden attacks which require very powerful bursts of strength that are very well timed, so maybe they're close by in order to do this rather than because of drafting.

Like I say, I don't know that much so hopefully someone more knowledgeable can correct me, but I find in interesting to think about this and wish there were some more discussions of this stuff.

Cheers,

Johnny

 

[Kerplunk]

Re: Sprinting, Drafting etc

Cav's specialism is to put on a massive burst of speed for a very short distance, as little as 200m and probably not more than 500m. That's a very distinctive skill, so I guess not many others can do it.

Its this. Even if you are sat on Cav's wheel with 200m to go you're not getting passed him 99% of the time. His kick off an already high speed is immense.

I was thinking the same about 'drafting' when climbing. If there's a headwind it'll have an effect but at what speed does drafting start working if there's no wind? Although staying on the wheel of your rival means you can cover any attacks.

My TDF question is why doesn't Andy Schleck try and win the tour before trying to get his brother second place?

 

[foz]

1. There is usually a pretty good fight going on to get cav's wheel! quite hard to see on tv, but htere's always a fair bit of pushing and shoving to get the best positions. Even if someone has cav's wheel, that doesn't mean they're going to be able to beat him - cav is being pulled along, and knows when he's going to start. Whoever is behind him has to start at the same time, and sprint the same distance plus one bike length. at the speds they're going, making up a bike length is not easy... doesn't just apply to cav, applied to any sprint basically. but since HTC is doing the lead outs, cav is the one being taken to the finish, everyone else just tries to follow him.

2. Renshaw is quick, but cav is quicker in the last 200m. why use your second best sprinter and risk not winning?

3. At the speeds the pros go up mountains, drafting can still help, especially if there is a wind. hiding at the back in a headwind will help. hiding at the back in a tailwind may also help you more and take some tailwind away from the guys in front. sometimes it also helps to be at the back - psychlogically, following wheels can be easier than making the pace, and it's also easier to keep an eye on the competition, see who's going well, and spot any attacks. from a small group, attacking from the back is also easier as no-one can see you accelerate. even in a big group, it's very rare that someone will just attack from the front, they usually come from a few places back.

I agree that this year has been pretty good so far, but it would have been better without the loss of so many favourites - the more riders with a chance of winning, the better the race!

 

[AR-CoolC]

Even if someone has cav's wheel, that doesn't mean they're going to be able to beat him - cav is being pulled along, and knows when he's going to start. Whoever is behind him has to start at the same time, and sprint the same distance plus one bike length.

I actually think it is Renshaw who makes the decision when Cav goes. If you watch the sprint finnishes, Renshaw will be up out of the saddle on the final lead-in.

At the point where Renshaw sits back down in the saddle is when Cav goes, so as a follower you should be watching Renshaw rather than Cav.

My presumption has always been that Renshaw will give it the beans until he has no more left, dragging Cav as close to the line as he can.

 

[Old Ned]

Renshaw (and the other 'train' riders) is basically paid NOT to win - his (very well paid) job is to make sure Cav gets to the point where he starts his sprint and then get out of the way.

Whatever happens next year with HTC/Bob Stapleton, SKY etc. then expect to see Cav with his team around him again no matter what it says on the jersey.

 

[foz]

I think they probably work it out between them. They know the best distance at which cav should go, but depending on corners, wind, other riders, legs, etc., they will work it out on the go. renshaw won't just sit up without letting cav know about it first, and if cav sees other coming up from behind then he might have to go earlier than planned.

 

[AR-CoolC]

paid NOT to win - his (very well paid) job is to make sure Cav gets to the point where he starts his sprint and then get out of the way.

As a side question, how much do pro cyclists get paid, in comparison to other pro sports men/women?

I've always presumed (rightly or wrongly) that they are towards the bottom of the ladder.

 

[red_riviera]

paid NOT to win - his (very well paid) job is to make sure Cav gets to the point where he starts his sprint and then get out of the way.

As a side question, how much do pro cyclists get paid, in comparison to other pro sports men/women?

I've always presumed (rightly or wrongly) that they are towards the bottom of the ladder.

Apparently, the wage bill for ALL 439 registered riders on ALL ProTour teams is less than that of just the Olympic Marseilleis football team.

 

[pigman]

much has already been said about the sprinting.

As for the uphills.
1. there is a wind/drafting factor, but its not as important as on the flat, unless its really windy, eg ventoux
2. being at the back of a small group lets you see your rivals. thats why when the schlecks climb at the front, theyre constantly craning their necks round to see the others.
3. its mainly to with pacing. you can climb much faster clinging to a back wheel than doing it yourself, and if that pace is constant/high rather than max/min stop starts then thats more effective and eliminates the group fragmenting