RetroBike trolls, be counted

[orange71]

There was a time that accounts had been created that mimic'd my nickname and that of another/others on the forum. I think it was JeRkY. (the full stop being part of the account name).

Due to the dilligent observations of one member these were brought to the attention of myself, the other affected members and John, the accounts were all banned before anything could happen but effectively I think some one had created them to scam on sales posts or just generally cause trouble.

and I was one of the others cloned...

 

[Neil]

The guv hinted at it being troublesome waters on the first page of the thread.

I'm often surprised by how frequently John exercises his proprietorial right, but this is his site, and that's his business.

Well opinions vary.

And I'm not saying this to be a suck-up, but I find it one of the refreshing aspects to this forum. Somebody who's not afraid to lead. Some forums, trip over themselves, because in order to try and appease / appeal to everybody, the admins / mods bend over backwards - and in the end, appease nobody.

Whilst I'm sure there are times when tensions do run high, I don't recall the same degree of prolonged BOTM related squabbling in years gone by.

It's such a tiny part of the total traffic. I honestly couldn't say if it's increased or diminished since my arrival here three years ago. One problem in resolving any of these issues, of course, is that all the interesting threads keep getting locked before any resolution can be reached.

1. Surely you can't be blind to the tensions that have fallen out of the last few BOTMs?

2. This thread hasn't been locked, yet.

3. Have the numerous discussions so far not resolved it? If not, why not?

My exact words, were:-

I mean, FFS, it all just sounds so bitter.

I didn't use the term "dominant", that was your invention - so I'd appreciate you not putting words in my mouth that weren't there, is there any real need?

I wasn't quoting you directly.

I didn't say you were - I said you were putting words in my mouth - you were. You said:-

your claim that the dominant tone is one of bitterness

I made no such claim.

I did say:-

Do you think the squabbling that such discussions and divisions it appears to reinforce, are also good for the commuity?

How many BOTM threads, and BOTM fallout threads have had the same or similar discontent raised?

I mean, FFS, it all just sounds so bitter.

So that sentence is in context of the preceding, and to which I later clarified:-

I did say "sounds" - and I show context for that above, and I stand by that - the repeated, ongoing, underlying discontentment that seems to be repeatedly hinted at, by some, about the BOTM votes, in recent months, does "sounds so bitter" to me.

I'm not claiming that the forum is so bitter, or the concept of BOTM has become so bitter, merely one side of the ever-reoccurring, hinted, but nothing-more-really, accusation that there's trouble at'mill.

Because this topic keeps rearing it's ugly head, with rumours and innuendo, is doing nothing than prolonging the argument, and resolving nothing other than reinforcing whatever divisions or factions are on both sides.

Perhaps it could use some more constructive direction from the chair.

I disagree - I think John has made comments about being receptive both earlier, and now, to any claims of shenanigans.

I wonder if anybody has really actually taken it up with him, or the mods, given that some have already said they know there are people with more than one account, and that block voting goes on, organised by PM.

If people "know" this already, and are concerned enough to discuss this several times, and defensive of it being repeatedly discussed, why so reticent about actually doing anything about it?

A simple question for you: after 6 pages of this thread, and similar themes being hinted at in several previous threads, how is it any further forward, or nearing resolution?

As Zhou Enlai said, "it's too soon to tell".

So we're a few days further on.

Progress?

What progress do you imagine will happen without people being more direct? Or if the accusers are not prepared to, perhaps accepting that any further mithering about it serves nothing more than encouraging a divide, but not having any conviction to actually do anything active about it to heal the gap?

So roll on the next thread with ever more of the insinuations, eh...

 

[GoldenEraMTB]

It's a three horse race between yes, no, and maybe so.

So, John, has anyone narc'd?

 

[one-eyed_jim]

Surely you can't be blind to the tensions that have fallen out of the last few BOTMs?

I'm not. I don't think they're new, and I don't think they're a big part of the site dynamic. I do think they're significant enough to address and resolve with discussion, if possible. If we keep sweeping them under the rug, they'll keep on coming back.

This thread hasn't been locked, yet.

I think it's the first (I may be mistaken, but I don't read every thread) to address this issue that hasn't been suppressed, either by being locked down, or by instructions from above to look the other way and whistle on pain of a lockdown. That's progress.

Have the numerous discussions so far not resolved it? If not, why not?

Because it's a complex and delicate problem to address without alienating the membership; and because the discussion is so often quashed before it can get anywhere.

I said you were putting words in my mouth

I suppose I'll just have to risk the opprobrium of my peers.

I think John has made comments about being receptive both earlier, and now, to any claims of shenanigans.

I wonder if anybody has really actually taken it up with him, or the mods, given that some have already said they know there are people with more than one account, and that block voting goes on, organised by PM.

As I think I've made clear, there's a difference between engaging in open discussion about the problem and taking it to the authorities in private, and I've explained why I prefer the former course. John has made it clear that anyone found to be using more than one account will be banned from the site. I for one have no desire to see anyone banned.

Rob's thread is about multiple accounts: block voting is a separate, though related issue. I think it's a much bigger problem, but it's also just about impossible to eliminate. That's a shame for everyone involved, because it means that the winner isn't the person with the best bike, but the individual who can marshall the largest faction. That may not even be somebody with a bike in the competition.

If people "know" this already, and are concerned enough to discuss this several times, and defensive of it being repeatedly discussed, why so reticent about actually doing anything about it?

I think I've made it clear that in my opinion discussion is a necessary step. I just don't see that it's causing the problems you allude to. On the contrary, if you subtract your posts and mine from this thread, it's characterised by a range of opinions and general good humour. In particular, you seem to be the only participant who thinks we shouldn't even be talking about it.

So we're a few days further on.

Progress?

:roll:

 

[john]

More interesting points raised. To respond to some

-Other threads of this nature have been locked, yes. I only recall temporarily locking one BoTM thread when this was discussed. I think most would agree the thread had turned rather sour and sometimes you just have to say 'enough'. Some users are on occasion not 100% interested in discussion.

-Moderating a forum is quite a tricky task. It's clearly impossible to please everyone.

-This hasn't been 'brushed under the carpet'. I simply don't see it as a huge issue. I do routinely check users IPs and post history if I smell a rat. In the 5 and a bit years this site has been running I've only had to exclude a handful for this. As for BoTM, well, if someone wants to rig a contest to win that's pretty lame. Anyhow, I hope the changes I've made will address some of the concerns raised.

-There hasn't been a flood of squealers, grasses and snitches.

-Bergarac has the skills that pays the bills, but he's no Poirot.

 

[GoldenEraMTB]

More interesting points raised. To respond to some

-Other threads of this nature have been locked, yes. I only recall temporarily locking one BoTM thread when this was discussed. I think most would agree the thread had turned rather sour and sometimes you just have to say 'enough'. Some users are on occasion not 100% interested in discussion.

-Moderating a forum is quite a tricky task. It's clearly impossible to please everyone.

-This hasn't been 'brushed under the carpet'. I simply don't see it as a huge issue. I do routinely check users IPs and post history if I smell a rat. In the 5 and a bit years this site has been running I've only had to exclude a handful for this. As for BoTM, well, if someone wants to rig a contest to win that's pretty lame. Anyhow, I hope the changes I've made will address some of the concerns raised.

-There hasn't been a flood of squealers, grasses and snitches.

-Bergarac has the skills that pays the bills, but he's no Poirot.

Thanks, John.

Aside from Neil and One-eye going to and fro, here and there, and other places. This thread has been civil, and stuck with the harmless curiosity with which it was made. Moderating is definitely a thankless job.

 

[highlandsflyer]

Aside from Neil and One-eye going to and fro, here and there, and other places.

It is mating season, after all.

I think it is impossible to eliminate sock puppets completely, but overall they constitute a small number of users unless there is a greater motivation for their existence.

This site does not have reputation points, that is one of the things that stimulates a rise in alias users.

FWIW Moderators here seem to be hitting the right balance, and that is not easy.

 

[one-eyed_jim]

Neil and I have history, unfortunately. I helped him identify some brake levers a little while ago, and he's never forgiven me:

http://www.retrobike.co.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?p=764728

I hope I didn't seem too critical of the management. They may not always make the decisions that I would, but I'm generally glad that they make them so that I don't have to.

There are one or two things in Real Life that require my undivided attention for the next couple of weeks, so I'll be taking a little Retrobike holiday.

Toodle pip.

 

[Neil]

Neil and I have history, unfortunately. I helped him identify some brake levers a little while ago, and he's never forgiven me:

http://www.retrobike.co.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?p=764728

Well you may think there is some polarity, between us - maybe there is for you - but I take peoples' posts on face value, rather than some previous baggage. So from my perspective, there is no us - there can never be - although I do confess to having a Sid James T-shirt, take that any way you like...

The only reason I've mainly been replying to you, in this thread, is simply because you've made some clear, repeated accusations, maintained that it's furthering an injustice in BOTM votes / results, and defending a seemingly ongoing, never-ending discussion on a topic that seemingly goes no further, doesn't seem able to go any further, 'cept to foster certain divides, because you are happy to state the smoking gun, but not prepared to actually fully disclose your case.

From where I'm sat, it's the futility - I'm not an advocate of hushing anything up, or suppressing discussion - merely that the same topic, repeated, but with no progress seems to be doing nothing more than stirring and encouraging a divide.

And this thread hasn't been locked, and has run for quite a while - progress? It's not been squashed or locked - so been allowed to run...

So it comes down to the response could be too harsh?

Personally, I'm of the view that tension on both sides of the BOTM votes is daft - and the more the bickering and mithering goes on about it, the more it gets pushed towards - "Is it worth the arguments and the hassle?"

I think there should be perspective in this, but I feel that different takes on it, have become so closely focussed and have lost sight of a bit of fun, really.

Personally, I've never taken BOTM seriously - it's a fun vote for me, that, really I've never cared about what wins - don't think I've ever voted for the winner, I just like seeing some nice bikes, with often some endearing back-stories, and voting for the one that I personally prefer.

 

[MikeD]

No-one has ever canvassed my BOTM vote via PM, email, hand-delivered letter or carrier pigeon. I feel left out now.