Retro-modern fusion gravel build madness. The new Superb!
- Thread starter M_Chavez
- Start date
Some people really make me lose faith in humanity. As species, we are all doomed.
Bought a French Tange headset on ebay. Advertised as very good condition.
On arrival, the bottom race is brinelled to the point where it's either indexing already, or about to start doing it. Bottom cup is also brinelled (probably workable with loose balls instead of caged). The cup turns as if it ran on sandpaper instead of bearings.
Top cup & race quite worn, but still useable.
The seller also conveniently forgot to mention that the chrome is flaking off in a few places and the locknut is slightly chewed up from the wrench slipping - none of these are deal breakers, but "very good condition" it ain't.
The stack height is just right, I've got a matching Tange JIS race to fit my 27mm fork, I don't really need that bottom race or cup (not to say that I wouldn't need them for the next build), so I make a very reasonable (imho) request if the guy would partially refund me a tenner towards a working bottom cup. This is not about pocket change, this is a matter of principle - if something's buggered, don't advertise it as good condition. The guy's blatantly mis-selling.
Guess what - the guy refuses, so instead of letting me use the parts that still work and lose an extra tenner, he's going to lose a fiver on shipping and sit on this half-working headset until some other schmuck comes along with a short-stack French frameset.
I'm doing this out of principle because I don't like being taken for a ride - what's driving the seller's actions? An extra fiver half a year down the line, assuming he does not mis-advertise this again?
Bought a French Tange headset on ebay. Advertised as very good condition.
On arrival, the bottom race is brinelled to the point where it's either indexing already, or about to start doing it. Bottom cup is also brinelled (probably workable with loose balls instead of caged). The cup turns as if it ran on sandpaper instead of bearings.
Top cup & race quite worn, but still useable.
The seller also conveniently forgot to mention that the chrome is flaking off in a few places and the locknut is slightly chewed up from the wrench slipping - none of these are deal breakers, but "very good condition" it ain't.
The stack height is just right, I've got a matching Tange JIS race to fit my 27mm fork, I don't really need that bottom race or cup (not to say that I wouldn't need them for the next build), so I make a very reasonable (imho) request if the guy would partially refund me a tenner towards a working bottom cup. This is not about pocket change, this is a matter of principle - if something's buggered, don't advertise it as good condition. The guy's blatantly mis-selling.
Guess what - the guy refuses, so instead of letting me use the parts that still work and lose an extra tenner, he's going to lose a fiver on shipping and sit on this half-working headset until some other schmuck comes along with a short-stack French frameset.
I'm doing this out of principle because I don't like being taken for a ride - what's driving the seller's actions? An extra fiver half a year down the line, assuming he does not mis-advertise this again?
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Some people just deserve to receive a norovirus laden stool sample in the post
The easiest thing for me would be to swallow my pride and use the worn tange headset that fits together with my tange JIS race, but I'm afraid this moral defeat will bug me every time I get on the bike.
Also, if my starting point is a worn headset, what am I going to do after I bugger it with gravel & mild offroad use?
So, mad wrenchers, Let's talk about a bodge...
Bottom cup I can deal with. It's French-agnostic, but the 27mm race is a bugger. The only chap I knew who could have turned it down to 26.6 has passed away a wee while ago, so let's keep it at 27.0. I have the Tange JIS race and have three options (is 1 or 2 workable?):
1) Use it with the Tange JIS cup, installed into the frame with a beer can shim;
2) I have a worn campy mirage headset that I was thinking of throwing away (ironically, not as badly worn as what the ebay guy sent me!) and it seems that I can use the Tange race with the campy cup. I know, mixing and matching parts within the same headset is not a great idea, but they seem to fit reasonably well. Tange uses 4mm balls, Campy uses bigger balls, but also different shape cups. Should work if I pack loose balls into it.
After some thought, not the best option - at the moment, there seems to be good availability of low stack sealed cartridge bearing EC30 headsets that should do the job much better.
3) Buy a cheapo ISO tange headset that uses the same balls as my JIS race. Another £11 down the drain, but bottom cup will work as designed by the manufacturer.
Also, if my starting point is a worn headset, what am I going to do after I bugger it with gravel & mild offroad use?
So, mad wrenchers, Let's talk about a bodge...
Bottom cup I can deal with. It's French-agnostic, but the 27mm race is a bugger. The only chap I knew who could have turned it down to 26.6 has passed away a wee while ago, so let's keep it at 27.0. I have the Tange JIS race and have three options (is 1 or 2 workable?):
1) Use it with the Tange JIS cup, installed into the frame with a beer can shim;
2) I have a worn campy mirage headset that I was thinking of throwing away (ironically, not as badly worn as what the ebay guy sent me!) and it seems that I can use the Tange race with the campy cup. I know, mixing and matching parts within the same headset is not a great idea, but they seem to fit reasonably well. Tange uses 4mm balls, Campy uses bigger balls, but also different shape cups. Should work if I pack loose balls into it.
After some thought, not the best option - at the moment, there seems to be good availability of low stack sealed cartridge bearing EC30 headsets that should do the job much better.
3) Buy a cheapo ISO tange headset that uses the same balls as my JIS race. Another £11 down the drain, but bottom cup will work as designed by the manufacturer.
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Top cup is a bit more challenging.
Sheldon says:
"You can install a threadless headset on a threaded fork, if the fork steerer is tall enough and you use a quill stem. The threads should end above the headset top race. Use two locknuts tightened against each other to hold down the threadless top race, plus spacers as needed."
Let's ruminate on this one.
I believe French headset uses M25 pitched at 1mm. While you won't find these in your local DIY store, the same thread is used in some motorbikes and scooters. Cheap 4-mm thin M25x1 steerer nuts are available from Italy, but shipping and customs make them way too expensive. They must, however, be available in the UK too... Might ask a couple local mechanics.
Alternatively, one can buy an alloy M25x1 nut that's 12mm high, and carefully hacksaw it into two slim nuts. Why? To use them as a pair of locknuts as described by Sheldon.
So, please tell me why this will not work:
Top headset Option 1:
Use a regular ISO loose bearing threaded cup & cone. Threaded cup won't engage the steerer threads, but this does not matter, as we can pre-load it with the two locknuts. The threads might need a kiss with a file to slide onto the steerer, but that's not a deal breaker. Imho, the cup should sit tightly on the bearings as long as the locknuts are pressing it down - i.e. there is no requirement for it to be threaded on? It does, however, need to perfectly match the profile of the steerer?
This option still requires some sort of retaining device to hold the 25.0 steerer inside the cup. Like a compression ring used in threadless headsets. 1" ones are quite hard to come by - you might as well buy a threadless cartridge headset.
Top headset Option 2:
Assuming the stack height is still available, use an ISO sealed bearing headset (Or a spare JIS sealed bearing unit pressed in with a beer can shim). The top lockring held down by the two locknuts, just as the bodge described by Sheldon.
As French bikes often had very low stack headsets, this might be problematic.
If either of these options are viable, this effectively liberates any old French frame from having to use a French headset.
Vive la liberté!
Sheldon says:
"You can install a threadless headset on a threaded fork, if the fork steerer is tall enough and you use a quill stem. The threads should end above the headset top race. Use two locknuts tightened against each other to hold down the threadless top race, plus spacers as needed."
Let's ruminate on this one.
I believe French headset uses M25 pitched at 1mm. While you won't find these in your local DIY store, the same thread is used in some motorbikes and scooters. Cheap 4-mm thin M25x1 steerer nuts are available from Italy, but shipping and customs make them way too expensive. They must, however, be available in the UK too... Might ask a couple local mechanics.
Alternatively, one can buy an alloy M25x1 nut that's 12mm high, and carefully hacksaw it into two slim nuts. Why? To use them as a pair of locknuts as described by Sheldon.
So, please tell me why this will not work:
Top headset Option 1:
This option still requires some sort of retaining device to hold the 25.0 steerer inside the cup. Like a compression ring used in threadless headsets. 1" ones are quite hard to come by - you might as well buy a threadless cartridge headset.
Top headset Option 2:
Assuming the stack height is still available, use an ISO sealed bearing headset (Or a spare JIS sealed bearing unit pressed in with a beer can shim). The top lockring held down by the two locknuts, just as the bodge described by Sheldon.
As French bikes often had very low stack headsets, this might be problematic.
If either of these options are viable, this effectively liberates any old French frame from having to use a French headset.
Vive la liberté!
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Vintage pelissier frame old hiker bike frameset frame set | eBay
<p dir="ltr" style="margin-top:0; margin-bottom:0;">Cadre Pelissier 650B</p> <p dir="ltr" style="margin-top:0; margin-bottom:0;">Taille 54</p> <p dir="ltr" style="margin-top:0; margin-bottom:0;">Années 50</p> <br> <p dir="ltr" style="margin-top:0; margin-bottom:0;">Entraxe 120</p> <p dir="ltr"...
www.ebay.co.uk
Not my size,but if anyone fancies a randonneuse, at least this one has a headset in it.
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Mickeyspinn
rBotM Winner
Right ....out of guilt...cos I suggested this masochistic route of building an awesome bike I'm now going out to the shed of french shit....
I'll rummage and see what I've got and what I've done to make some of mine...."work"
I'll rummage and see what I've got and what I've done to make some of mine...."work"
Mickeyspinn
rBotM Winner
Yes dead right! Once it's done.....it's done.
I think I'm still in a good place.
I've got that buggered campy top cup and a spare JIS sealed bearing cup to try the workarounds.
There's always other fallback options - e.g. Velo orange French headset & a grinder
To be honest, quite unlucky of me to get the 27mm race fork.
So, any ideas why I shouldn't use the Tange race with a campy cup, as long as the fit is nice & snug, and the headset turns OK?
I've got that buggered campy top cup and a spare JIS sealed bearing cup to try the workarounds.
There's always other fallback options - e.g. Velo orange French headset & a grinder
To be honest, quite unlucky of me to get the 27mm race fork.
So, any ideas why I shouldn't use the Tange race with a campy cup, as long as the fit is nice & snug, and the headset turns OK?
