Bloody cheek!

[brocklanders023]

Businesses don't usually strike because they do not have effective Unions to do all the work for them.

I'm not sure what point you're making here. Industrial action is hardly unique to the public sector, and there are plenty of active trade unions representing private sector workers.

(I don't get holiday pay, sick pay, overtime, healthcare or anything and my pension is lousy. Being self-employed, though, I don't think striking is the way forward for me )

My point is that the reason conditions in the private section are so bad is that no one stood up to defend them. People that give away their conditions should not get so upset at those that choose to defend them.

Deluded bullshit!
Conditions in the private sector are getting worse because if you aint prepared to work for £X an hour with no pension, there is someone overseas who will gladly do it for a tenth of £X.
The world is catching up with us, and we have to accept that we, all of us, are going to be a lot poorer because of foreign competition.
At thye moment, many foreign workers are happy to work just to survive.
If they follow the western model, eventually they will be unionised and living standards willl rise to our level and possibly beyond.
Now though, they aren't worried about pensions because no one expects to live that long.
Our cosy little world is falling apart, and no-one is immune from the effects.

So that goes for every job in the private sector then does it?

 

[JohnH]

They will not back down as the % increase has nothing to do with paying for the pensions, it's simply a way of making money.

Nope.

But the real urgency of redressing the balance comes because the UK is facing a demographic timebomb and this is not, as people generally think, in the distant future. It is exploding right now. The fastest growth in the pensioner population in the whole of the 21st century will take place in this Parliament. Between 2011 and 2016 the number of people aged 65 and over will rise by 1.4 million while the working age population below 50 will fall by 160,000. This demographic shift will continue so that that by 2041 there will be just 2.5 workers for every retired person, down from nearly 4 now.

http://uk.finance.yahoo.com/news/Public ... 68318.html

There's only so much money people will allow to be squeezed out of them to pay for the failings of the banks and the Tories bogus claims that the country is about to go under.

Which bit is bogus? The country's national debt which is measured in trillions? The fact that the debt is still going up, even after George Osborne's cuts? The £120 million per day that the country is paying in interest? Does anyone actually think that this sounds like a healthy economy?

From what I understand the teachers pension scheme is in good health and after the changes a few years back is projected to become less of a drain.

Whoever's been telling you this is catastrophically wrong.

Here's what's actually happening...

The same money's going in, but an increase in the amount of people retiring means that more money's coming out.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-11466273

My scheme would be healthy if those in charge had not spent all the money we pay in. Do you think it's fair that they spent our money, money that was paid in to support the pension, but now expect us to take the hit?

What do you mean "spent all the money"? It's more than likely that the fire brigade pension fund has done its job and now has to pay out some big chunks of money to the firemen who are now retiring so that they can go and buy the annuity that will give them an income throughout their old age.

My service has done it's bit over the last 8 years with cut after cut, acceptance of worse conditions, reduced numbers, changes to the pension, no pay increase for years with no prospect of one anytime soon etc etc. There comes a point where enough is enough and that has been reached.

It could be worse BL: I know of self-employed people who have not only watched their business go under but have had to sell their family home to pay off company debts.

 

[Neil]

From what I understand the teachers pension scheme is in good health and after the changes a few years back is projected to become less of a drain.

Whoever's been telling you this is catastrophically wrong.

That's as maybe - but it is what many have been concluding from the Hutton report.

 

[JohnH]

That's as maybe - but it is what many have been concluding from the Hutton report.

I'm not sure how Hutton concludes that job losses in the public sector will reduce the burden on taxpayers to shore-up the the public sector pension deficit, when those same job losses will also reduce the amount of public sector contributions. :?

 

[brocklanders023]

They will not back down as the % increase has nothing to do with paying for the pensions, it's simply a way of making money.

Nope.

But the real urgency of redressing the balance comes because the UK is facing a demographic timebomb and this is not, as people generally think, in the distant future. It is exploding right now. The fastest growth in the pensioner population in the whole of the 21st century will take place in this Parliament. Between 2011 and 2016 the number of people aged 65 and over will rise by 1.4 million while the working age population below 50 will fall by 160,000. This demographic shift will continue so that that by 2041 there will be just 2.5 workers for every retired person, down from nearly 4 now.

http://uk.finance.yahoo.com/news/Public ... 68318.html

There's only so much money people will allow to be squeezed out of them to pay for the failings of the banks and the Tories bogus claims that the country is about to go under.

Which bit is bogus? The country's national debt which is measured in trillions? The fact that the debt is still going up, even after George Osborne's cuts? The £120 million per day that the country is paying in interest? Does anyone actually think that this sounds like a healthy economy?

From what I understand the teachers pension scheme is in good health and after the changes a few years back is projected to become less of a drain.

Whoever's been telling you this is catastrophically wrong.

Here's what's actually happening...

The same money's going in, but an increase in the amount of people retiring means that more money's coming out.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-11466273

My scheme would be healthy if those in charge had not spent all the money we pay in. Do you think it's fair that they spent our money, money that was paid in to support the pension, but now expect us to take the hit?

What do you mean "spent all the money"? It's more than likely that the fire brigade pension fund has done its job and now has to pay out some big chunks of money to the firemen who are now retiring so that they can go and buy the annuity that will give them an income throughout their old age.

My service has done it's bit over the last 8 years with cut after cut, acceptance of worse conditions, reduced numbers, changes to the pension, no pay increase for years with no prospect of one anytime soon etc etc. There comes a point where enough is enough and that has been reached.

It could be worse BL: I know of self-employed people who have not only watched their business go under but have had to sell their family home to pay off company debts.

Believe what you want about the reason for the increase now, it is openly stated by Ministers behind closed doors that they want cash off us now to add to the coffers. It is also stated that a whole new scheme will be in place before the next election. This is where the pension savings will be made.


The graph you show is for the public sector, not just the teachers. On Newsnight the other day a graph for the teachers showed the burden will go down. All sides agreed this point.

What I mean by 'spent all the money' is that they've spent all the money. Councils were allowed to spend the money generated by the Fire Service pension. This is a fact.

 

[Neil]

That's as maybe - but it is what many have been concluding from the Hutton report.

I'm not sure how Hutton concludes that job losses in the public sector will reduce the burden on taxpayers to shore-up the the public sector pension deficit, when those same job losses will also reduce the amount of public sector contributions. :?

All I'm saying - and a caveat: I haven't read the complete Hutton report, there's a freshly painted wall I'd rather watch 'til it dries - but I've read several analysis, and listened to others who've analysed it - and there's certainly a view that what Hutton says is that public sector pensions should be reformed - because, in effect, they're not fair, but also, looking at the devil of the detail, that they actually are affordable in the long term.

What I'm perceiving is a conclusion that it's undesirable as opposed to unaffordable - which is why many are questioning the basis of the assertions of reform - and goes some way to why Francis Maude sounded like he'd been absolutely and utterly mugged on Radio 4 the other day.

 

[suburbanreuben]

Businesses don't usually strike because they do not have effective Unions to do all the work for them.

I'm not sure what point you're making here. Industrial action is hardly unique to the public sector, and there are plenty of active trade unions representing private sector workers.

(I don't get holiday pay, sick pay, overtime, healthcare or anything and my pension is lousy. Being self-employed, though, I don't think striking is the way forward for me )

My point is that the reason conditions in the private section are so bad is that no one stood up to defend them. People that give away their conditions should not get so upset at those that choose to defend them.

Deluded bullshit!
Conditions in the private sector are getting worse because if you aint prepared to work for £X an hour with no pension, there is someone overseas who will gladly do it for a tenth of £X.
The world is catching up with us, and we have to accept that we, all of us, are going to be a lot poorer because of foreign competition.
At thye moment, many foreign workers are happy to work just to survive.
If they follow the western model, eventually they will be unionised and living standards willl rise to our level and possibly beyond.
Now though, they aren't worried about pensions because no one expects to live that long.
Our cosy little world is falling apart, and no-one is immune from the effects.

So that goes for every job in the private sector then does it?

Yes!

And many in the public sector too.
Fr'instance, Qualified nurses are often now deemed too expensive. It is cheaper to hire a "nursing auxilliary" to do much of their work. Unfortunately, there is usually no -one willing, and qualified, to do a nursing auxilliary's job, at their rate of pay, in this country, so we have to look abroad. As a bonus, they're usually fully qualified in their own country, but not to be a "Nurse" here.
Other public sector jobs will follow, as British workers price themselves out of the market. Anyone who mainly uses a computer or telephone, or who lacks specific local skills is vulnerable.

 

[brocklanders023]

So your saying every £20,000 private sector job has a chap from overseas willing to do it for £2000? And you think what I said was deluded! I could be wrong but you seem to have swallowed the Daily Mail.

 

[suburbanreuben]

So your saying every £20,000 private sector job has a chap from overseas willing to do it for £2000? And you think what I said was deluded! I could be wrong but you seem to have swallowed the Daily Mail.

Every single job can be performed , often much more cheaply, by someone abroad, or an immigrant to this country.
One of the sectors hardest hit by immigration has been the building trade. Highly skilled workers from Eastern Europe have been able to undercut native brickies, carpenters, etc quite considerably. It is often said, mainly by the "aspiring classes"that the British workman deserved it, because he's overpaid and lazy.
Whether true or not, that is a charge that can bemore accurately levelled at Britain as a whole

 

[dyna-ti]

I quite expected this to run to a few pages but when the charts and statistics start coming out................... :shock: