Baroness Warsi (Hats Off To..)

[Bats]

Well, the UN are already there. All that happens is Israel bomb them too.

 

[highlandsflyer]

They are not there as a peace keeping force, and they have been targeted internally also.

A peace keeping force would best comprise agencies from sympathetic countries, and be in co operation with Hamas if possible.

There needs to be a radical change in how the whole problem is approached. Egypt are not acting in the best interest of the people there either. We could put more pressure on them. Why don't Saudi step up and help broker some deal to give the Palestinians a homeland?

 

[secret_squirrel]

That's one hell of a paradox there. If Hamas did it to radicalise the population and swell it's ranks as you describe, it wouldn't work. You don't simultaneously believe your organisation is a cynical ploy to get your people killed to drive recruitment (which you claim), and also believe that you're doing it to protect those people (which is why people reason joining).

There is no paradox - people join organisations for all sorts of reasons - once you are in - the reasons matter less than the fact you are stuck in and have to conform to the ideals of the organisation.

Try reading up on asymmetric warfare before making random assertions on whether something is a paradox. What Hamas do is textbox stuff.

How many Hamas members have joined out of a genuine wish to defend their people? Quite a few I bet. How make the choice (either as an internal emotional debate, or externally with their comrades) to opt out when asked to fire a rocket from a residential area? Not many I bet - and frankly I would probably make the same choice. Self preservation tops the moral choice 9 times out of 10 in human beings. Evolution built us that way.

No wishing things were different is going to change things - so try arguing from a realistic perspective instead of a fantasy one.

 

[CTK]

Re:

Israel cant moan about rockets coming over until they get off Palestinian land. In fact it is Israel's fault that rockets are coming over. Its Israel's fault that there is no ceasefire.

 

[kenaltobelli]

Re: Re:

Israel cant moan about rockets coming over until they get off Palestinian land. In fact it is Israel's fault that rockets are coming over. Its Israel's fault that there is no ceasefire.

its israels fault all this kicked off with 3 students killed is it?
in reality its the whole worlds fault this sorry mess started after ww2 and cant be fixed
in our lifetime .
should really leave this debate to dave and barack

 

[CTK]

Re: Re:

Israel cant moan about rockets coming over until they get off Palestinian land. In fact it is Israel's fault that rockets are coming over. Its Israel's fault that there is no ceasefire.

its israels fault all this kicked off with 3 students killed is it?
in reality its the whole worlds fault this sorry mess started after ww2 and cant be fixed
in our lifetime .
should really leave this debate to dave and barack

3 students = murder

 

[Chopper the ex Copper]

Not to mention the 33,000 (yes, thirty three thousand) rockets and mortars Hamas have fired into Israel since 2006.

And who's been first to breach every single one of the 4 ceasefires in the current bout of fisticuffs? I'll give you some clues - they run Gaza and begin with an 'H'?

And Israel didn't choose to occupy Palestinian land. They were dumped there by the UN in 1947, when most Jewish disapora were hoping for a chunk of rural Uganda with no one in it, or even part of Amazonia. The people of Israel just can't cease to exist to suit Hamas.

Bottom line is that if you pull the tigers tail often enough you'll sooner or later get to see its teeth. I'm a thicko and even I figured that out before I was 10.

 

[Bats]

^ actually the last few Israel broke. One of their excuses was that hamas supposedly took a prisoner of war. Then they admitted they didn't.

And then there was monday's one, where they bombed a refugee camp within minutes of the ceasefire starting.

As for "ceasing to exist", nobody has asked the Israeli civilians to do that? People are generally upset that a bunch of hotel bombers think they have the right to found a state there when there already was one. Putting the natives in walled prisons, economically blockading them, and knocking their houses down illegally generally upsets people.

As for the 33K rockets... Yes, I'm glad Palestinians are slowly, however ineffectively, fighting back. You forgot to mention the rockets started with Israel's economic blockade of Gaza, which Israel did because the Palestinians voted for people Israel don't like.

Got a lot of respect for people who fight back, even when they know they can't win. I only hope one day they can make rockets that actually do something.

Three dead teens weren't hamas either. Good thing Israel can make up a new excuse every fifteen minutes.

There is no paradox - people join organisations for all sorts of reasons - once you are in - the reasons matter less than the fact you are stuck in and have to conform to the ideals of the organisation.

Try reading up on asymmetric warfare before making random assertions on whether something is a paradox. What Hamas do is textbox stuff.

How many Hamas members have joined out of a genuine wish to defend their people? Quite a few I bet. How make the choice (either as an internal emotional debate, or externally with their comrades) to opt out when asked to fire a rocket from a residential area? Not many I bet - and frankly I would probably make the same choice. Self preservation tops the moral choice 9 times out of 10 in human beings. Evolution built us that way.

No wishing things were different is going to change things - so try arguing from a realistic perspective instead of a fantasy one.

You argue from a ridiculous standpoint where you assume your own personal psychology is shared with everyone else, and then dare tell other people they're arguing from a fantasy perspective?


End of the day, there's no excuse for Israel's behaviour. If you're a big fat bully nobody is going to accept you're "defending yourself" by stabbing someone who slapped you and ran off instead of handing over his pocket money.

And people wonder why they were such good friends with Apartheid SA.

 

[Woz]

We will never, ever, stop supplying them weapons. Israel is the only thing stopping the possiblke creation of a united muslim state or alliance stretching from Libya across to the northern border of India. For all sorts of strategic and commercial reasons they get plenty of willing support.

There is already the Arab League / Union.

 

[Chopper the ex Copper]

Israel since the sixties have had a policy of 'asymmetric response'. In other words, pick on Israel with a water pistol and you could theoretically be nuked back. It's supposed to be a deterrent, although whether it works or one or not is highly dubious. Nevertheless, the policy is a matter of international record and I've no sympathy for anyone too stupid to realise what the consequences may be. I'm not saying its right, I'm saying its the way it is.

They were good friends with the apartheid regime because both at various times suffered arms embargo which motivated both to develop their domestic arms industries and co-operate with the development of their own nuclear weapon. The embargo did nothing more than actually accelerate the rate that both states gained sophisticated weapon systems.

Bottom line is that the IDF is one of the best equipped and probably the best trained conventional military force in the world. They're also extremely highly motivated, effectively a nation of professionals under arms. The Br

Aitish army couldn't take them on and realistically hope to win - the IDF land forces have more than 20 times the personnel available - so why do a bunch of hot heads with home made rockets think they've a chance?

I don't fancy getting stabbed, so I don't go round slapping people with nuclear weapons.