Holdsworth Professional Track Frame?

[CBguy]

Looking at 1981 catalog pages on Kilgariff and VCC site and as in Aids catalog page previously shown by Shaun, I'd have to agree it looks pretty definitive his new acquisition fits description of Holdsworthy's professional racing range top of the line "Classic" time trial machine.

Features match: likely originally 5 speed (at least from what I can tell in Dave's Cycle Chat link of poor pic of FD setup), SL tubing and fork decals, "special" Prugnat cut out lugs, drilled rear vertical Campagnolo dropouts, same TT Braze ons, short wheel base, fork crown, fastback seatstays, etc.

Guess fact that there doesn't appear to be a a 79 or 80 catalog available does not rule out possibility of frame being from these years. Perhaps considering this info and Dave's prediction guide c.1980 is a good round date.

see: http://www.nkilgariff.com/HoldsCats/Cat ... alogue.htm

 

[dwscrimshaw]

I've got a frame decaled as a Roy Thame number 69517 I always wondered what it was?

Shaun

Hi Shaun, found this, seems to have same number as yours!

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Great-Roy-Tha ... SwtjxZjyiz

 

[Midlife]

Interesting . Just off out for the afternoon but will have a look later. Thanks

Back now.

Is it me or does that Roy Thame number have an "A" after it? double checked my frame number again and it hasn't changed. I still think my frame is a 1969 ish Cronometro with the shot in seat stays and the drilled lugs for lightness as per the advert..

I'm just wondering what livery to have it refinished in..

 

[dwscrimshaw]

thanks, yes it seems to so I guess that technically make is a different number, certainly not the same frame. My only reason for asking was this thread, but guess the number must be a typo. I'll just log them as two different numbers

 

[CBguy]

Yes I guess the "A" makes ebay track Roy Thame a separate number. Perhaps A was added to differentiate the two frames when error was realized perhaps by Quick himself. Although could "A" represent another builder? However font and position is the same as other "69" "Shop Holdsworth" frames felt likely to be Quick frames and early 70's frames.

These two shop frames 69517 and 69517A which are both painted up as Roy Thames raises another question; did Roy Thame branded frames actually first start in earlier 70's rather than '75 or were both these frames start life as Holdsworths and later were repainted by Roy Thame and branded as such - noting both frames paint jobs are in very good condition. (The latter was our likely conclusion re Shaun's frame.)

The answer to question by Shaun as to which livery to have his Cronometro frame refinished in is now a shade muddied. Guess we won't know for certain unless a pre '75 Roy Thame with definite livery comes to surface.

Doug

 

[dwscrimshaw]

All very interesting. Assuming the numbers we have found are a representative snapshot of what was going on it is odd that the only two 69 frame numbers we have for RT badge frames are these two with the same digits! nothing from any other year until 75. Not sure it adds any clarity though.

After the high number of 69... frame numbers, far more than the years 70-74 and the RT numbers we have, there is a limited number of shop style numbered frames before 1975. Three of these look genuine, T71216 & the two Italia's 74739 & 74826. The other are only 4 digits long and look a bit dubious, I think Doug has commented on these in the past. May be these numbers do not belong in the shop number group? Either way something was still going on with shop style numbers after 69 in addition to these being produced in latter years.

Any further thoughts?

 

[Midlife]

My "Roy Thame" has been resprayed lilac, it's not a factory finish as it's a bit thick and has a couple of runs. The lug lining is also pretty amateurish. The decals are odd in that they seem to be in the wrong places. The 531 Decal has a Ti logo on it and is quite a lot later.

Underneath the lilac it's white. I'll sand some of the lilac off later and hunt for anything underneath. I'm sure my frame was not actually finished and decalled by Roy Thame.

 

[CBguy]

All very interesting. Assuming the numbers we have found are a representative snapshot of what was going on it is odd that the only two 69 frame numbers we have for RT badge frames are these two with the same digits! nothing from any other year until 75. Not sure it adds any clarity though.

After the high number of 69... frame numbers, far more than the years 70-74 and the RT numbers we have, there is a limited number of shop style numbered frames before 1975. Three of these look genuine, T71216 & the two Italia's 74739 & 74826. The other are only 4 digits long and look a bit dubious, I think Doug has commented on these in the past. May be these numbers do not belong in the shop number group? Either way something was still going on with shop style numbers after 69 in addition to these being produced in latter years.

Any further thoughts?

Hi Dave,

IMHO, I think the few frames on your spreadsheet with different position of stamps and beginning with 71, 72, 73 and 74 should stay where placed on your list until we have definitive evidence otherwise. An explanation for these differently numbered shop looking frames as opposed to most of "69" frames could be that they were made by outside builders for shop and thus different stamping.

Also K69357R that recently has been advertised on eBay is the only 69 frame with a different placement of numbers (across BB) as opposed to those attributed to Collard's 69 numbers (larger, vertically stacked numbers) and those later "69" smaller numbers along edge of BB attributed most likely to Quick. This is an important find as suggests to me that this is a frame built outside shop and quite likely by Charlie Roberts ("R") who built for the "trade" and is said by Kilgariff to have built stock frames for shop ( signified by "K"). "357" by your prediction list suggests date of 1972.

Doug

See: http://www.ebay.ca/itm/272795128679?ul_noapp=true

 

[torqueless]

Re:

Ah, thanks for the heads up on that, CBguy.
Just to throw a few more thickeners into the plot, my '75 mystery frame, which I bought secondhand in 1984 decaled as a Shorter, had serial number K75013R. There is another bike in the archives here which has a number in the same format- Iirc Omegastrada's Stan Pike K80***R, which brings me full circle as his thread is probably the site of my first post on this forum.

 

[CBguy]

Torqueless,

Well, who knows re the K and R significance! Agree, "Plot" just got thicker and deeper into conjecture!

Curious, does your "Shorter" serial number font and positon on BB resemble above K69357R?

Doug