Titanium, a mystic dark art must have or a lot of hype?

[M-Power]

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^^ Good stuff Gerard. Not enough actual fact based posts like this on RB these days. Not sure i buy that the Americans used imported Russian Ti bitd. They had their own military sources/supplies since the 60s at least.. Think SR71 Blackbird, the fastest plane ever to fly was made extensively of Ti. FAT Chance ordered custom larger diameter tubing early on from their tubing suppliers. Doubt that would have been possible if it was just stock import chemical grade Ti tubing from mother Russia.

 

[Gerard]

Re: Re:

^^ Good stuff Gerard. Not enough actual fact based posts like this on RB these days. Not sure i buy that the Americans used imported Russian Ti bitd. They had their own military sources/supplies since the 60s at least.. Think SR71 Blackbird, the fastest plane ever to fly was made extensively of Ti. FAT Chance ordered custom larger diameter tubing early on from their tubing suppliers. Doubt that would have been possible if it was just stock import chemical grade Ti tubing from mother Russia.

"M" very true re Blackbird...the plane that never was!
The tubing etc didn't come from mother Russia, just the raw material or "sponge" (Ukraine actually had the largest reserves). The Us could process it as could Japan who also was a huge processor of the material. The US were keen to keep it for primarily NASA, aircraft industry & military.
Timet (US company) are the largest supplier, but I don't think there are any Ti mines in US. Timet (2013) were trying to block the Pacific Trade deal (which Trump has dropped) particularly the 15% duty on TI:

The largest U.S. titanium producer on Tuesday asked that the light-weight metal used in military aircraft and other defense equipment be excluded from free trade talks with Japan, arguing a healthy domestic industry was vital for national security.

"Titanium is a strategically important metal," Harry Seiner, a vice president at Titanium Metals Corp (TIMET), told the U.S. International Trade Commission. It was holding a hearing on the economic impact of Japan joining talks with the United States and ten other countries on a proposed regional free trade agreement known as the Trans-Pacific Partnership (TPP) pact.

Eliminating the 15 percent U.S. tariff on titanium would let Japan flood the U.S. market with titanium sponge, a semi-processed form of the metal that is used to make titanium ingots and slabs, Seiner said.

It was probably dealt with a bit like South African wine in the 1980s which was sold over here as Bulgarian wine (tasted very good for £2.99!). Japan is only a processor, so they probably got/get material from USSR/Ukraine etc. and might have sold it to the US. (Now Australia India & Canada etc). Australia was just beginning to learn about it's reserves and was an infant in the market.

Anyway I just remember it was like "hen's teeth" and seen as a wonder material. Even in the 1990s (Jon Krakauer's book -"Into Thin Air" goes into this in some detail) all the oxygen cylinders used on Everest by the Americans (and Brits, etc etc.) were made in Russia. No US made ones at all....only Russian. They were the only ones with the raw material to do it.

 

[66 triumph daytona]

Re: Re:

^^ Good stuff Gerard. Not enough actual fact based posts like this on RB these days. Not sure i buy that the Americans used imported Russian Ti bitd. They had their own military sources/supplies since the 60s at least.. Think SR71 Blackbird, the fastest plane ever to fly was made extensively of Ti. FAT Chance ordered custom larger diameter tubing early on from their tubing suppliers. Doubt that would have been possible if it was just stock import chemical grade Ti tubing from mother Russia.

The Americans at the time didnt have the machinery or knowhow to produce the titanium needed for the Blackbird.Apparently the CIA set up 3 fake companies so they could import the Russian titanium for the SR71.All of the Blackbird`s titanium was Russian,crazy when you think about it.

 

[M-Power]

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Loving this thread its an eye opener. Wondering if the 5% is US mined sponge or secretly Rusky too. Anyhow, the raw sponge was turned into very high quality tubing and made great US made bikes. Maybe Chris Chance is a really a Russian Agent using the bike trade as a cover

 

[Gaddmeister]

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Blimey! Put me off titanium now, dont know what your getting in yer tubes!
Im lookibg forward to trying my Sunn revolt fuji lite steel tubed bike when i recover from my health issues. They are meant to give a nice ride

 

[The History Man]

See. Bacon for you.

 

[66 triumph daytona]

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MMMMM titanium
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fmEsZ1SyjeQ

 

[M-Power]

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Blimey! Put me off titanium now, dont know what your getting in yer tubes!
Im lookibg forward to trying my Sunn revolt fuji lite steel tubed bike when i recover from my health issues. They are meant to give a nice ride

Titanium is an element from the periodic table at the end of the day. The atomic structure is exactly the same whether its from another planet or earth. Where its extracted is of less significance than who does the ore processing and ultimately manufacture of the ideally seamless 3/2.5 VAl Ti alloy tubes at the end of that process. There are lots of different grades of Ti alloys with different properties and specialist uses. The quality of the Ti alloys used in bike frames is only one component, together with inert gas purging during the weld process, correct tube speccing, welders ability, geometry etc. Inverted snobbery aside, you do get what you pay for with a premium Ti bike frame.

 

[Gaddmeister]

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I love bacon!

After this thread I am with the HM on this. Bacon is bacon, reliable and tasty every time.

I tried pancetta as a treat one day and fountd it to break up, thus not enjoyable nor value for money.

I always fancied a ti frame, however, after reading the comments; the only frames worth buying are high end to avoid cracks and an iffy ride.

I cannot warrant the price of Fat Chance or Merlin.....I'm a family man. I would have considerwd a cheaper version but all I seem to hear about is cracks.

Thanks guys for the heads up! I'll stick to my bacon!

 

[M-Power]

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Im partial to proper Irish gammon, flowery potatoes with butter, parsley cabbage and turnip, all washed down with a pint of the blackstuff, preferably after a nice days golf or fishing :mrgreen:

Alu frames are far more likely to crack due to fatigue than even the cheapest Ti versions - fact. Im not convinced there is a high incidence of Ti frames cracking at all. If they do crack it would be sooner rather than later due to contaminated welds and they would be replaced or repaired under warranty. The few Ti frames that i have heard of cracking were used for many many years, Ibis, Moots etc. The bikes were ridden in all that time regularly - mostly because they are so good to ride and thats really the point Their owners also seemed to have little hesitation in taking a lot of trouble to find the best Ti welders and paying to get the repair done properly, so they could keep on riding it. Why would they bother if the bikes didnt give such a rewarding ownership experience ?