Titanium, a mystic dark art must have or a lot of hype?

[The History Man]

Now this is more like it. Answers i can relate to.

 

[M-Power]

Re:

As long as you are over 6ft tall, anybody is welcome to meet me in N Herts and take my 97 FAT Ti for a quick spin offroad, then let you be the judge. Bring your finest steel jalopy to compare it to The bike will speak for itself :mrgreen:

 

[66 triumph daytona]

Re:

I wonder what became of the glut of cheaper Russian and Chinese Ti frames that were on the market back then(Titanium Red etc).Did they last?

 

[RickTheUncivil]

Re: Re:

As an analogue, whilst you can pay a lot for a steak, if you're in the mood for a burger, eat a burger and you'll be satisfied. There is good steak and bad steak and if you cook it badly irrespective how good it is it'll taste bad. If you can't afford steak, have a burger they're also nice and if you're vegetarian and don't eat steak or beef burgers there are lots of alternatives which are delicious too.

True. The bike is more than just the frame, every other part will help make it right or wrong. a £1000 Ti frame covered in cack parts and ridden by a tit is still just a lump of mobile metal

Perhaps the only way to tell what is "best" is to build a Ti bike, ride it, then build the same parts on a comparable Alu frame, ride it, then a comparable steel frame, then carbon..... see how the different materials compare when other factors are at least partly controlled (Frame geometry, components, test route, weather...)

I have only just recently managed to get any miles on a Ti framed bike, and I must say it rides nicely. More forgiving and less jerky than Alu, similar to steel perhaps (but I'm not massivly familiar with steel bikes either!) It feels light - I know it IS light but you know what I mean.

Fragile? I have had 2 Vit T2s and both had been repaired, not exactly confidence inspiring, but I don't think that is representative of all Ti frames. (sits back and waits to be corrected)

 

[Harryburgundy]

Isn't it like steel just lighter? Love Ti for all bits that go on to a frame. Can't beat Ti hex bolts. I had Ti forks and gave a very smooth ride. But beware of cheap poorly made Far East Ti cracks and breaks far to easy.

I've had lighter steel frames, not all ti frames are particularly light.

Personally, I would have a beautifully painted top notch uber butted light weight steel over a ti frame any day. I do like ti but i don't think it's the zenith of frame building materials.

 

[M-Power]

Re: Re:

I wonder what became of the glut of cheaper Russian and Chinese Ti frames that were on the market back then(Titanium Red etc).Did they last?

Part of the prob with perception of Ti frames perhaps. Cheap sourced lower grade Russian/Chinese Ti, oxygen contaminated welds during welding = a short term happy owner experience. The US sourced Ti is/was much better quality at the time. Sandvik made many of the higher end bikes branded by manufacturers at the time but they still used flexy plain guage tubing. Sorry to bang on about FAT City but they really put the custom design and speccing effort into their Ti frames well ahead of the rest. Chris Chance was initiallly sceptical of making Ti frames due to costs etc and their frames were and still are £££s, justifiably so imo as so few were made. Quality Ti frames that are likely to last a lifetime of use but not abuse cost more to produce - fact.

Think magazines have compared similar geometry and specs from different materials in the past and Ti came out on top in reviews iirc. Would be interesting to do the same today with carbon being much more advanced. Also just reading a framebuilders post on FB, apparently steel 853 can be tuned/specced to ride very similar to Ti at a fraction of the cost :shock:

Ti is better suited to CX HT style riding as this uses its natural shock absorbtion characteristics best. I doubt an older Ti frame would last long with regular heavy use at trail centers.

 

[66 triumph daytona]

Where did Raleigh source their titanium?The Torus I bought was a fraction of the other established makes.

 

[xerxes]

Re:

Could you make a metaphorical comparison using pork based products? What would gas pipe, decent steel, aluminium, carbon and titanium frames be?

Carbon fibre is like pigs in blankets; it's a composite.

 

[cce]

My Merlin was brilliant. You should buy it.

 

[Gerard]

Where did Raleigh source their titanium?The Torus I bought was a fraction of the other established makes.

My Raleigh's have stickers saying "Timet" on them.
There were lost of stories rumors etc that the Raleigh frames were built in Russia which were just not true. Bikemaster2000 on here used to be employed by RSP and dispelled the the myth pointing out they were all hand welded in Nottingham (by him and others).
Raleigh did make Ti frames for others including X-Lite, a Dutch company (forget their name, one sold recently either on here or ebay with a crack).
As with alot of things there is snake oil which means you can charge the earth for things. Back in the day, frames made by in the USA were always considered to be the best etc and therefore a premium price was charged.
I lived in the US in the early 90's and IIRC the story was titanium was subject to a surcharge/extra tax as the raw material mainly came from Russia/Ukraine in those days. Furthermore apparently the military wanted the extra tax to keep Japan (a large processor) from flooding a strategic market, this helped priced Ti out of the consumer market! How much truth to this, I don't know.

We used both Timet titanium from Birmingham and then worked with IMI at Swansea to develop a tubeset for use specifically for our plasma-arc welding systems, rather than taking stock 3al 2.5v off the shelf.

There is nothing American about it. Hand built Ti frame made in England. Bike hand assembled in Nottingham. If bought new you would have had a card with the assembler's picture on it.
Frame drawing and geometry by Justin Stevenson. Raleigh SPD, Dawes, Saracen and now at Whyte.