The Lance Armstrong Story - Stop at Nothing on iPlayer

[Mike Muz]

Re:

There's more ?

Is he financially ruined ? I doubt it .
Should he be jailed for lying in those interviews by the authorities ? Yes . Surely it is an offence in itself .
So I don't understand why he wasn't .
I believed in him at the time . After all , he had so many tests and not one positive . How could we fail to believe him .
Mike

 

[Neil]

Re: Re:

There's more ?

Is he financially ruined ? I doubt it .
Should he be jailed for lying in those interviews by the authorities ? Yes . Surely it is an offence in itself .

I understand the lying part. And once again, he's hardly the only one.

So I don't understand why he wasn't .

Who knows - maybe he will be, maybe there's not the same interest now it's all been outed.

Maybe there's more to it than simply him. Perhaps complete disclosure would bring more horror to light than most really want.

I believed in him at the time .

For some it would always have been the absolutism.

Many in his shoes would have kept their head down and been canny - in fact many did.

After all , he had so many tests and not one positive . How could we fail to believe him .

And there's the thing...

He wasn't unique (in terms of the drug thing...) drugs were prevalent both before and after him. There's a lot more got away with it, than been done for it. Now I've no issue with the backlash against the arrogance and the bullying - he's had that coming to him.

It's the kind of implication that it's a major thing in addressing the drugs issue in cycling. It isn't - it was one important scalp that perhaps courted, and had it coming. Nobody, really, seems interested in how deep the rabbit hole goes.

Ignoring his attitude (and yes, I get some of the argument that it's a salient factor) it's the token-ism that irks me. How many other cyclists have done just as much - perhaps more drugs, probably conspired in a similar manner - yet nobody seems quite as interested in hunting them down with the same vigour. Is it the TdeF wins, or the brash Texan-ism that is the reason for that?

 

[Mike Muz]

Re: Re:

There's more ?

Is he financially ruined ? I doubt it .
Should he be jailed for lying in those interviews by the authorities ? Yes . Surely it is an offence in itself .

I understand the lying part. And once again, he's hardly the only one.

So I don't understand why he wasn't .

Who knows - maybe he will be, maybe there's not the same interest now it's all been outed.

Maybe there's more to it than simply him. Perhaps complete disclosure would bring more horror to light than most really want.

I believed in him at the time .

For some it would always have been the absolutism.

Many in his shoes would have kept their head down and been canny - in fact many did.

After all , he had so many tests and not one positive . How could we fail to believe him .

And there's the thing...

He wasn't unique (in terms of the drug thing...) drugs were prevalent both before and after him. There's a lot more got away with it, than been done for it. Now I've no issue with the backlash against the arrogance and the bullying - he's had that coming to him.

It's the kind of implication that it's a major thing in addressing the drugs issue in cycling. It isn't - it was one important scalp that perhaps courted, and had it coming. Nobody, really, seems interested in how deep the rabbit hole goes.

Ignoring his attitude (and yes, I get some of the argument that it's a salient factor) it's the token-ism that irks me. How many other cyclists have done just as much - perhaps more drugs, probably conspired in a similar manner - yet nobody seems quite as interested in hunting them down with the same vigour. Is it the TdeF wins, or the brash Texan-ism that is the reason for that?

Maybe both

He was brash in his first season . Didn't seem so brash on comeback initially
TdF wins . Five times winner Hinault , clean . Five times winner Indurain , clean . Not to say the previous five times winners weren't of course .just a bit before my cycling time .
During my time , Indurain lost his opportunity of a sixth win to Riis , a cheat , followed by Ullrich , another one . And numerous other winners and leaders thrown off the race . It makes a mockery of the sport , along with the governing body , and for me at least , the only deterrent from doping is a lifelong ban from the sport . So no 2 year ban , leaving riders free to train and come back . Two prominent riders spring to mind . One of which being the current Olympic Champion !
Mike

 

[Neil]

Re: Re:

There's more ?

Is he financially ruined ? I doubt it .
Should he be jailed for lying in those interviews by the authorities ? Yes . Surely it is an offence in itself .

I understand the lying part. And once again, he's hardly the only one.

So I don't understand why he wasn't .

Who knows - maybe he will be, maybe there's not the same interest now it's all been outed.

Maybe there's more to it than simply him. Perhaps complete disclosure would bring more horror to light than most really want.

I believed in him at the time .

For some it would always have been the absolutism.

Many in his shoes would have kept their head down and been canny - in fact many did.

After all , he had so many tests and not one positive . How could we fail to believe him .

And there's the thing...

He wasn't unique (in terms of the drug thing...) drugs were prevalent both before and after him. There's a lot more got away with it, than been done for it. Now I've no issue with the backlash against the arrogance and the bullying - he's had that coming to him.

It's the kind of implication that it's a major thing in addressing the drugs issue in cycling. It isn't - it was one important scalp that perhaps courted, and had it coming. Nobody, really, seems interested in how deep the rabbit hole goes.

Ignoring his attitude (and yes, I get some of the argument that it's a salient factor) it's the token-ism that irks me. How many other cyclists have done just as much - perhaps more drugs, probably conspired in a similar manner - yet nobody seems quite as interested in hunting them down with the same vigour. Is it the TdeF wins, or the brash Texan-ism that is the reason for that?

Maybe both

He was brash in his first season . Didn't seem so brash on comeback initially
TdF wins . Five times winner Hinault , clean . Five times winner Indurain , clean . Not to say the previous five times winners weren't of course .just a bit before my cycling time .
During my time , Indurain lost his opportunity of a sixth win to Riis , a cheat , followed by Ullrich , another one . And numerous other winners and leaders thrown off the race . It makes a mockery of the sport , along with the governing body , and for me at least , the only deterrent from doping is a lifelong ban from the sport . So no 2 year ban , leaving riders free to train and come back . Two prominent riders spring to mind . One of which being the current Olympic Champion !
Mike

Just one thing - how are you defining clean?

Consider your perception of Armstrong, say, a decade or so back.

 

[Grannygrinder]

Re: Re:

Maybe there's more to it than simply him. Perhaps complete disclosure would bring more horror to light than most really want.

Could be a very, very ,very deep government lead hole.
He was riding for the US Postal service, which i believe is a US government department.
Just how badly did they want to win????
Just a hypothosis
I expect the feds will be kicking my door in within the hour

 

[Mike Muz]

Re:

Well , a decade ago , he was a sporting hero for many , and an inspiration for survival against the odds for others. As far as the sporting part is concerned , we've since found out he is a fraud .
I mostly feel sorry for the current crop of young riders , whose hopefully clean achievements will be deemed as a kind of ' is he clean or not ?' by the public who know of the biggest/only race they know of as having been won by a doping rider

 

[Neil]

Re: Re:

Well , a decade ago , he was a sporting hero for many , and an inspiration for survival against the odds for others. As far as the sporting part is concerned , we've since found out he is a fraud .
I mostly feel sorry for the current crop of young riders , whose hopefully clean achievements will be deemed as a kind of ' is he clean or not ?' by the public who know of the biggest/only race they know of as having been won by a doping rider

"Everybody lies." Dr Gregory House

All we know about people who say they're clean, is that tends to be what they say, and they haven't been caught by tests.

What did Lance say before he was the subject of a huge investigation...

 

[The History Man]

Channel4 now

 

[Woz]

Just watched the film. The drug part never really came as a shock in all honesty - historically
cycling success is associated with it. Presumably, it always will regardless of Lance Armstrong,
The Festina affair....and while we are at it let's go back to Tom Simpson too.

Now what did mildly shock and surprise me was paying off people in his early pro career:
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2012-10-15/a ... be/4312558

I got the impression that not only was the drug part organised like a tightly run ship, but his
thirst for big winnings and calculating the needed PR, financial investment level for necessary
"support" and "dealing" with the risks simply extraordinary. Ruthless business with no place
for ethics sums it up for me.

 

[Mike Muz]

Re:

Just seen the second part of this . Was Hein Verbruggen under suspicion of conspiracy regarding this scandal ?

Mike