Prestige Marin Team/Team Issue - differences

Which year are you after?
Geometry is often the main difference.
Issue having a long top tube, racey look to it. Better, usually XTR kit.
I’m not fixated on a particular year, but like the prestige frames and a rigid frame + fork combo. Would prefer not to have a redundant canti hanger, but would be using xtr vees.
Am curious - did the geometry change only from year to year, or did the 2 models really differ in frame layout in the same year? Was that not quite unusual to see higher end frames in a line differentiated by geo?
 
Ive spent the last couple of years on and off investigating marins.....started by trying to date an old frame.. but dont even go there.......there's a whole other thread, just explaining the issues with dating, let alone the actual dating from the frame number!

Models round the world are not the same, it causes much confusion 30 years later.

As far as i have worked out......and anybody want to tell me different im all ears believe me!

In europe we got the team issue basically in 92......its when it appears in the catalogue for the first time. However, the americans market got it the year before in 91, but as a kinda special build, designed by kelly burr, featuring a shorter length monostay rear end. These were bright red/orange colour. (However, these are not to be confused with the Teesdale ones build in usa, which were also red, but can be identified by their design and brazing.)

Colourways were very different between territories too. In the uk we got light zolotone in 90 and dark in 91 it then swapped to the coloured rear triangles on a dark frame.......except the team issue which was nickel plated.

In the foreign parts the colours were totally different with neon fades and splatter paint in the lineup for these years.

Two very confusing issues lead to many bikes being miss identified.

1. The model identifying number in the bottom bracket changed when new bikes were inserted into the line up.....but as not all territories got models the same year, it means you could have a team marin with either 1 or 2 as an identifier. Or a pine mountain with 2 or 3 accordingly. Also remember models dont change at midnight on the 31st december. Ive got an 89 team, with 90 stamped on the bb........how do i know its legit? I bought in it 90! Models then changed in the spring ready for the summer.

Our fabulous retrobike thread on marin dating ( running since 200:cool: has many people saying " theirs dosent fit" thats not because the infos wrong, its just they miss the above salient piece of info, pointed out 3 pages in by a very astute retrobiker!

There also an issue with the pre 90 codes, the ones with one letter and 8 numbers. These only give the year.....the model does not work. This ive proven by taking numbers from peoples frames.....none fit the model....or do by chance at best!

2. Much store is put the cable stop positions for the identification of team marins were their providence is lost. However, this info is mainly based on uk speck where teams had either 2 cables on the top tube or on the head tube on later (92) models.
This is not conclusive as other territories has from 90 to 92 had stops on the downtube ( including some team issues).

I believe this misinterpretation led to the almost urban myth of the " prestige pine mountain " which i can find no catalogue or actual evidence for. My theory ( and it is only a theory), is that the association of the stops on downtube led people to belive it can't be a team, but weighs in (300g lighter) as prestige or has the remnants of a prestige sticker, which are far more durable than marin decals!.....qed.....

There certainly were pine mountain concept bikes and special additions including browning fork versions......again my theory is that the more robust cr-mo tubing made for a safer teat bed rather than the more fragile prestige tubing.

Wow. That ended up longer than i thought.....and thats the short answer!
 
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Just also should say, im sorry if any of the above offends anybody or is in any way incorrect. My interest is in team marins and im not an expert on the team issues, "marc two tone" your man for that! (We have had a few pm's over this in the past along with our erstwhile archivist "fluffy chicken"). My knowledge is only in passing to get to the team stuff!
 
I definitely can't add anything but am following with interest. @Tootyred could you point me in the direction of the serial number thread, to save me hunting?

I have, what I believe to be, a 1990 Team Issue in the restoration queue
 
Ok, I like the title of this thread and offers a relevance to this whole process. I hope you dont mind me using it!
Anyhow there is certain mystique with early/mid 90's marin bike of a certain team, issue and pine mountain models where the tubing was upper end and generally the desired bikes within the catalogue.
Here I will offer ( with help) to provide a definitive guide should we see any I.d problems in the future. By no means a 'perfect answer' more of a evolving chat on what we know, believe or speculate upon. I will just edit this reply so it's all here in the end. Once the council have nodded in approval.

MARIN.
Using far east manufacturing, and maybe without absolute control have churned out an eye watering amount of bikes, the case study here is 1991 to 1995 to clear stuff up. 1996 and 1997 have been largely omitted as the team/issue/pine seem quite distinct colour wise, tubing wise.
But, for the hell of it here's an image advising 1997 team/issue have 'exactly the same tubing'.
Say you were faced with a naked, raw metal frame? How to determine? Team had a 27.2mm seatpost and serial ought to deal with identity. Anyone got a 1997 team issue? Team has head tube stops atleast. Screenshot_20210604-155938_Samsung Internet.jpg

Work will fall in newest first, then let's get to the big, bad 1991.
All work in progress. Let's just build it organically.

Team marin 1995.

Heres the basics.
Serial number begins F1. For that year, careful now! Headtube stops, 27.2mm seatpost. rack mounts, satin silvery colour. Measured centre to centre.
I own one, can vouch.
Tange ultimate badge not always present on larger frames.

Team issue.
I dont believe there was a catalogue/public model available.

Pine mountain.
I've had one. Didn't take serial number. I'm recalling M2.......
Same silvery finish.
Rack mounts.
Seatpost 27.0mm 20210606_214543.jpg
 

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Im afraid we may have to hope some more people hop on this to help out, my knowledge is based on kinda 88 to 92 teams, with a smattering of pine mountain and team issue as a fact checking/ comparison model!

I definitely can't add anything but am following with interest. @Tootyred could you point me in the direction of the serial number thread, to save me hunting?
Its here.....https://www.retrobike.co.uk/threads/help-with-marin-frame-numbers-please.37430/

But the first page list only works for 91/92 onwards where the team issue was in the range.

Pre 90 numbers are 1 letter and 8 digits for ref.

Its why some are struggling using it.

For example a number of M11HDB.. could read as a team issue from the thread, but as it may not be present in that territory line up in 91, it would be a team marin.

Same goes in reverse....making your team marin a pine mountain, as 2 could be either dependant on existence of the issue model.

Marin frankly dropped a bo...ck here. It would have been far better to identify models by a alpha code ie. TI or TM or PM , rather than a moving target!

The problem i assume also exists further down the food chain, where models were inserted! But ive not look at them tbh.
 
Im afraid we may have to hope some more people hop on this to help out, my knowledge is based on kinda 88 to 92 teams, with a smattering of pine mountain and team issue as a fact checking/ comparison model!


Its here.....https://www.retrobike.co.uk/threads/help-with-marin-frame-numbers-please.37430/

But the first page list only works for 91/92 onwards where the team issue was in the range.

Pre 90 numbers are 1 letter and 8 digits for ref.

Its why some are struggling using it.

For example a number of M11HDB.. could read as a team issue from the thread, but as it may not be present in that territory line up in 91, it would be a team marin.

Same goes in reverse....making your team marin a pine mountain, as 2 could be either dependant on existence of the issue model.

Marin frankly dropped a bo...ck here. It would have been far better to identify models by a alpha code ie. TI or TM or PM , rather than a moving target!

The problem i assume also exists further down the food chain, where models were inserted! But ive not look at them tbh.

My s/n is 90TM0629E with Tom's TET 15 also on the shell. I've been told that the 15 is the frame size and guessing 90 is the year
 
Wow. Ok thats a left field one. Ive only ever seen pictures of the teesdale marins. Im not sure they share anything in common with the far east fabrication?

Is it true that they are brazed and lugged in part?

That numbers like nothing else ive seen! Anybody else?

But your assumption seems logical.
 
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I know the early Team Issue's were made in the USA. I've not seen Tom Teesdale's name mentioned in any literature but that's not unusual, as they could then contract out to various different builders if they wanted to, depending on workload/quality. All brazed - this is the only image I could find on my phone and the frame is in storage just now

TET15.jpg
 
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