I Find It Hard To Understand This. Police Pepper Spraying.

[We_are_Stevo]

What it all boils down to is; You cannot beat the system

If you try the official propaganda machine will use every underhand technique available to discredit you.

Take one of our own homegrown genuine heroes;

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-14697819

He was severely critical of this, and the last, Goverment following the death of his son in Afgan (a critique people would respect...); first he was accused of having child p*rn on his computer and a warrant issued for his arrest; next thing you know he conveniently dies of a suspected heart attack...

 

[dbmtb]

the documentation of the rapes at the tea party rallies? there weren't any which is why its so hard to find.

I'm not saying there were. But you are categorically saying there weren't. When really you don't have anything other than conjecture to back up your statement.

Opinions are one thing.

Fact is another. A statement purporting to be fact should be backed up by evidence supporting it.

Otherwise it is just conjecture based upon assumptions.

Which is also OK if presented as such. But you seem to have an uncanny talent for presenting your beliefs as concrete undeniable fact.

Which (in my conjecture-based opinion) is why you seem to be putting some peoples' backs up.

 

[GoldenEraMTB]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cybercast_News_Service

A nice unbiased news source you found there.

Well i was reading about it on the guardian comments section, that was just the first hit on google...


http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-glasgow-west-15462443
http://www.observer.com/2011/10/obj...t-attention-but-not-always-for-their-message/
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/11/02/tonye-iketubosin-arrested_n_1072367.html
http://abcnews.go.com/US/sexual-assaults-occupy-wall-street-camps/story?id=14873014
http://www.examiner.com/conservativ...young-deaf-man-allegedly-raped-at-ows-protest
[url=http://www.nypost.com/p/news/...w.nypost.com/p/news/local/manh ... t2I1rM33vL[/url]
http://thefeministwire.com/2011/11/occupy-rape-culture/

Take your pick...doesn't change what she said nor the fact that there are multiple rapes being reported at these gatherings, those are the ones that don't get dealt with internally they are worse than the catholic church...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=T1BWETV75hU

What to do when you get raped, don't report it to the police instead go to the tent where the woman with the pink armband will attend to you, no doubt trying to talk you out of reporting it. You're not a victim you're a survivor by the way.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gGFeJ6gmJAE&feature=related

Yeah, lovely people...just leave them alone they will rip themselves apart.

Rapes have been on a rise throughout NYC, this year, along with molestations and gropings. They are many times crimes of opportunity. They have nothing to do with OWS, other than there was ample opportunity there, and the police have been overworked and undermanned throughout the city. Why latch on to those events as if that is somehow part of a cause and effect with OWS?

Bloomberg made a mistake in going about the crackdown on OWS the way he did. It should've been on a weekend, in the middle of the day, with open access to journalist. Doing it under the cover of darkness, and keeping out all news agencies isn't right, and lead to greater feelings of repression.

Now, some say, to divert the attention from his misstep with OWS, Bloomberg cashed in his, "I caught a terrorist" chip, just a day ago. Another "lone wolf". It took OWS stuff off the front page and top of the telecasts.

I agree the police were stretched, over worked and undermined all because they are having to babysit a batch of protestors who have nothing better to do with their time. The rapes have happened at various Occupy protests around america...so the whole argument about rising rapes in nyc is really just a strawman.

Strange how the number of sexual assaults and rapes at say tea party rallies is zero (even though they have been going on far longer than the occupy movement something like 350 days compared to the 60 of occupy) yet the number so far is 7 at occupy protests. Perhaps it tells you something about the sort of people the occupy protests attract?

I'd love to see the real figures, without the cover up which is on going by the occupy protestors organisers.

Bloomberg did the right thing sweeping them out in the middle of the night, whilst they were too tired to organise resistance as they no doubt would have if they had been more awake. As for the press holding these guys up as heroes, i think even they are starting to wake up to the reality. The movement is already starting to run out of steam as more people see what a state these people leave the places they protest in.

I can't help but think they would have had more support if they hadn't just set up camps in parks, if they had held large scale organised protest marches for instance and taken part in those peacefully. Instead of depriving locals of their parks and public spaces.

hmmm, where do I begin:
"babysitting" has nothing to do with why the NYPD is overworked and undermanned- that has to do with their being a hiring freeze for the last couple years, layoffs, and underfunding, due to the "economy", which can then go full circle to who put us here- Wall Street and the Banks, possibly? Not really going tog et into that whole argument here, but again, I have a few forums for you get on, and really mix it up, if that's your intent.

next point of yours:
"strawman" and "happening at other OWS events around the country", please see my point above, the economy is not only bad in NYC; other municipalities have the same issue.

regarding your tea party comparison:
I understand that there now is this whole "cougar" or senior fetish, but there is little reason for a predator to canvas a tea party outing. Add to that, it's apple and oranges- the tea party gatherings tend to be one day events, and not encampments.

regarding your "cover-up" claims:
Where is your proof? There are greater investigators and journalist, than yourself, there, many with an agenda. I'm sure this would be all over, if there was an actual "cover-up"

your bloomberg point:
you do understand that many of these folks are wide awake at night, correct. I was actually there, and saw it myself; the place was highly active, and it wasn't a surprise raid; everyone saw them coming, and they ushered out the journalist and anyone with large recoding devices, confiscating many small ones; it was a blacked out action. Your justification of getting them when they were tired, is weak in comparison to the harm it did. Even, opposition journalist were forcibly removed- not good PR.

your point about the hygiene and mess left behind:
have you ever been to large public gathering, especially one that spans a number of weeks? Are cleaning crews not needed afterwards? Nuff said.

Your final point on more support... deny locals of parks and public spaces:
Now, this one, I can only speak for NYC, the park in question was a semi-private park, where a developer/contractor receives certain perks/licenses/subsidies from the city for constructing a building, but in return needs to be provide a certain amount of "green" space in the city, most times this is through a plaza style park, where it is mostly ignored, except for lunch time crowds. This park was not a high traffic park; no one was deprived. Well, not until, bloomberg began erecting steel barricades and passageways, blocking off foot traffic from businesses.

Support was gained through the media coverage, that otherwise would not have been gained; grassroot causes are a tricky thing. The tea party had it's stage, mostly because they are the establishment, and have heavy political ties with the Republican party; they only purport to be rebels; they're not. OWS was not party affiliated, and did not have strong support from any part. I wish they would join the Green party, as it could use the numbers and help, but it likely won't be.

Anyway, I would highly suggest you inform yourself further on issues you discuss, it's not becoming to go on and on, as if you are an expert on something you're not. There is a word for that- disingenuous.

I'm not going to participate further in this discussion, but again, I have a couple sites where this debate is in full swing, with some heavy hitters, if you want to play with the big boys. As this is RetroBike, I'll leave it at that.

 

[GoldenEraMTB]

This is directed at everyone; not just 1duck. Let's leave the hyperbole and name calling our of this discussion, otherwise the thread will be shut down. I understand it is the nature of such debates to get personal and less than tasteful, but not here on RetroBike. Let's keep it civil, though it might be less fun for some. Thanks.

 

[1duck]

the documentation of the rapes at the tea party rallies? there weren't any which is why its so hard to find.

I'm not saying there were. But you are categorically saying there weren't. When really you don't have anything other than conjecture to back up your statement.

Opinions are one thing.

Fact is another. A statement purporting to be fact should be backed up by evidence supporting it.

Otherwise it is just conjecture based upon assumptions.

Which is also OK if presented as such. But you seem to have an uncanny talent for presenting your beliefs as concrete undeniable fact.

Which (in my conjecture-based opinion) is why you seem to be putting peoples backs up.

If there were don't you think that there would be reports of them? or are we supposed to work off the theory that...there might have been but they might not have been reported?...proving a negative is nearly impossible, so why would you set about trying to prove something hadn't happened and how would you do it? its not really conjecture is it.

The fact is backed up by the lack of evidence.

 

[1duck]

I'm not going to participate further in this discussion, but again, I have a couple sites where this debate is in full swing, with some heavy hitters, if you want to play with the big boys. As this is RetroBike, I'll leave it at that.

Feel free to send me a pm with the links, i'll have a looksie.

 

[dbmtb]

proving a negative is nearly impossible, so why would you set about trying to prove something hadn't happened and how would you do it?

Which is why I find your choice of rhetoric bewildering, placing you as it does in a position where you end up having to do just that.

Of course I don't for a minute think it is very likely that anyone has been raped at a Tea Party meeting. But I don't KNOW for sure that it's the case.

And it was very mean and improper of me to manipulate you down that path in the first place.

 

[GoldenEraMTB]

I'm not going to participate further in this discussion, but again, I have a couple sites where this debate is in full swing, with some heavy hitters, if you want to play with the big boys. As this is RetroBike, I'll leave it at that.

Feel free to send me a pm with the links, i'll have a looksie.

will do; you might have fun; I know I do, from time to time

found this photo:

with the caption:
"What if King George III had a police force with pepper spray...we would've been spared the whole Life, Liberty, and Pursuit of Happiness thing."

a bit of a stretch, but funny...kinda

 

[1duck]

proving a negative is nearly impossible, so why would you set about trying to prove something hadn't happened and how would you do it?

Which is why I find your choice of rhetoric bewildering, placing you as it does in a position where you end up having to do just that.

Of course I don't for a minute think it is very likely that anyone has been raped at a Tea Party meeting. But I don't KNOW for sure that it's the case.

And it was very mean and improper of me to manipulate you down that path in the first place.

The only problem is that the last people who did something similar were the politicians who invaded iraq...Thankfully you don't have an army and you aren't going to invade my country. Probably because I don't have any oil.

If we are only debating certainties, we shouldn't be discussing the video at all...because we don't know what was said in the build up to the pepper spraying or any of the surrounding history. I mean how do we know that they weren't murdering babies seconds before the video was shot? not that i'm saying they were...

Anyway it has got a little heavy for retrobike as was stated above, so i shall take my leave also before i risk offending anyone (did someone say too late back there?)...and to those who might bother reading all the stuff from all the earlier pages to arrive at this post or those who might have been offended i apologise it certainly wasn't the intention.

 

[GoldenEraMTB]

proving a negative is nearly impossible, so why would you set about trying to prove something hadn't happened and how would you do it?

Which is why I find your choice of rhetoric bewildering, placing you as it does in a position where you end up having to do just that.

Of course I don't for a minute think it is very likely that anyone has been raped at a Tea Party meeting. But I don't KNOW for sure that it's the case.

And it was very mean and improper of me to manipulate you down that path in the first place.

The only problem is that the last people who did something similar were the politicians who invaded iraq...Thankfully you don't have an army and you aren't going to invade my country. Probably because I don't have any oil.

If we are only debating certainties, we shouldn't be discussing the video at all...because we don't know what was said in the build up to the pepper spraying or any of the surrounding history. I mean how do we know that they weren't murdering babies seconds before the video was shot? not that i'm saying they were...

Anyway it has got a little heavy for retrobike as was stated above, so i shall take my leave also before i risk offending anyone (did someone say too late back there?)...and to those who might bother reading all the stuff from all the earlier pages to arrive at this post or those who might have been offended i apologise it certainly wasn't the intention.

Fair enough, and thank you. As stated, it's the nature of these to get a bit ugly, and many times they are better left for other forums.

So have you guys check out FTW's very own Ultimate for sale- it's been stickied at the top of the ebay forum