Football hooligans.

cyfa2809":fpxwtd9z said:
i wish we could all have bodyguard dogs

to be fair, down here, they do a fair bit about the hooligans that are seen at the matches time and time again
(often raiding their houses)

Won't be much in football hooligans in Plymouth for much longer will there, they will just have to find something else to attach their tribal anger to.


A dog to fear is a border collie when it senses a problem, the way those buggers roll their top lip is scary. I used to leave my collie in my van when I used to do land surveying, tens of thousands of pounds of levels, electronic theodolites and pipe laying lasers were perfectly safe in a ford escort with their crap locks.
 
So true man, we had collies from when I was born being crofters.

There is no more wily snappy beast.

Seems people are talking as though we live in an ideal world where we don't need to worry about guarding our own or our property.

I cannot guarantee my dogs would never attack a child.

If you don't know jack shit about dogs, you might suggest that means my dogs are unpredictable.

It does not, it means that life is unpredictable.

Dogs are just another variable, like the camber of the road you haven't driven before.

The danger is taking your hands off the wheel.
 
I will get a collie again someday, as those beasts are a creature that are so clever, one is lucky if they can trick them once, never mind a second time. I believe mine was a welsh border collie, scrawny little thing with brown in the traditional black and white markings, and if the pups owner were to be believed, the mother of the pups was owned by the Actress Sian Williams, so the dog was called Sian.

But dogs, all throughout history they have been kept for many roles, and just because we are in the twenty first century, that does not mean we live in a safer society, for people still prey on people despite laws and custodians of the peace. If one has a dog on a lead, then it is unlikely that that person will be the victim of another's crime. As kids, we had the collie, it was with us all the time, a part of the gang, and I am sure my parents felt more secure in the fact we had the dog with us, as if I had kids, I would feel a lot happier if the kids were with a collie, which is a dog that very much feels part of the family, and takes a quick role in guarding it's family from external threats.

As to dogs biting people, one has to just ask why, what causes them to harm people. But dogs like every other animal should be respected, perhaps it is we have become as a society less respectful of anything including ourselves, perhaps creatures with their heightened awareness can see more than us.

The ony biting the collie did, was soft play biting, and the occaisional nip at the back of the ankle when we were all running around, I guess the collie was trying to round us up.
 
highlandsflyer":2tu6n8td said:
I think it was misunderstood why I let my dogs out..

What brought you to that conclusion?

highlandsflyer":2tu6n8td said:
Imagine there was no room for discretion were the parents to have complained?

Nothing is so black and white..

Of course it isn't but it's not something I'd be willing to test..

Imagine if your pooch had run up to a strangers kid (not that I'm suggesting for one second that it would, the situation is hypothetical and relevant to the point being discussed) that it sensed was in distress and the parents felt they're child was in danger... high risk of bye bye dog...

highlandsflyer":2tu6n8td said:
Dogs that attack people don't even automatically get destroyed.

Controlled dogs that protect owners or anyone else under attack have a good chance of having no penalty imposed.

Of course they don't.. but I see no sense in taking the chance.. and any dog that makes a person fearful of being bitten, regardless of whether the handler thinks they are in control, can be seized under the DDA.. but you know that already.

Not sure whether you are misunderstanding my earlier posts in this hf.. I see nothing wrong at all in your actions.. commendable imo..

Still (genuinely) interested in seeing your dogs... having lived and breathed the things for the last 8 years I'm a fan :?
Except in the case of the Cav King Charles, pointless animal..
 
There seems to be some misunderstanding about the nature of the Law here.

If you have a bald tyre you will be cautioned and required to amend the problem within a time frame, or face a penalty. the authorities are not required to give you this leeway, but they are doing so as it has been established as best practice to do so, although the officers retain discretion so remember to be polite to them...

The idea being that there is an assumption in Law, with lesser 'crimes', that you may not have not intentionally contravened, (or in truth it would be hard to prove intent), so you are afforded an opportunity to show it was an aberration. (Until such times as there is evidence to the contrary, for example you are found to be driving with a bald tyre three months later; or your vehicle has other issues that indicate a general disregard.)

On the other hand there are times when the authorities' hands are tied as they need to follow guidelines that remove their discretion, (usually handed down in response to public opinion or persistent social problems, for example increased rate of prosecution and stiffer sentencing for drink driving after a campaign against it).

If you drive without insurance, you will almost always be prosecuted and it is highly unlikely that you will not have a penalty imposed, regardless of mitigation, (thought you were covered under employer's policy, did not know insurance was expired, etc.). The arresting officer will require your keys and your motor will be impounded regardless of whether he knows you to be of good character, etc. His discretion has been removed from the equation.

If you drive at over 100 mph you will be certain to face a driving ban in the majority of cases. 99 and you will find out in court if you did not accept the fixed penalty or there was another issue as well.

The reason you will get six points for driving whilst not insured against third party risks, or a ban (albeit perhaps a very short one) for exceeding 100 mph, is that these penalties are set out in guidelines for these crimes. The courts must follow them unless there is an overwhelming reason to differ.

Guidelines ensure consistency amongst the courts. The idea being you should not face a different penalty by accident of geography, or other variables.

It also saves time for the courts, as they can dispose of most cases without having to consider appropriate penalties.

Your brief will tell you what you are facing when you go to court, based on the guidelines, and their personal knowledge of the local bent, which tends to be due to high profile local campaigns, social problems and the like. (I hear parts of Wales were known for being very keen on motoring offences.)

The Dangerous Dogs Act, which I am not particularly familiar with, was amended to allow more case by case interpretation amongst other things. This puts more onus on the courts to make decisions on individual cases rather than relying on guidelines.

Even dogs deemed to be dangerous according to the definitions contained in the acts and amendments will normally have their 'day in court', where an order is required for their destruction.

You should not fear for your dog barking at someone on the odd occasion; nor fear that someone's (often 'irrational') fear of dogs will lead to your dog being seized because they found it threatening.

There is no automated process between someone with a phobia feeling your dog might bight them because they saw it tied up outside Woolworths, and your beloved if a bit grumpy dog being carted off by the Police and destroyed.

It is up to the courts.

Most cases never even get to court.

The prosecuting authority need to believe it is in the public interest and that they can 'win' before they take matters further. They are responsible to a budget, like everyone else, and court time cost a lot of money.

They follow guidelines to save a lot of the initial decision making in most circumstances. The idea that they will ship your dog off to the pound where it will cost lots to keep until a court hearing because it looked at someone funny would make a mockery of the Law. The discretion of those involved and then the guidelines being followed will prevent most such nonsense reaching a court.

Were your animal to end up facing any imposition of control unreasonably, you would have your chance to present your version of events, providing evidence, witness and expert opinion possibly.

Were your animal to have reacted to, for example, violence towards itself or yourself, by biting an assailant you will have the opportunity to explain this to the court and your position will be considered before action is taken. If someone threw a punch at you as you walked past them in the park and your darling pooch nipped their thigh or elbow you are very unlikely to end up losing your dog.

Nothing in this process is automatic, save for an investigation being made once a complaint has been received.

The best illustration of this are the number of cases you can read about where dogs have bitten people yet the courts did not have them destroyed.

There are circumstances where a dog is not responsible for its nature.

It is for the courts to decide.

Personally I think they get it very wrong sometimes, and that is very unfortunate.

One good example found here:

http://www.theargus.co.uk/news/8186...ed_stay_of_execution_after_string_of_attacks/

I would like to see dog ownership mainly restricted to working dogs, and if you 'need' to keep dogs for other reasons you will need to take on board that responsibility in a much more formalised manner.

There are far too many dogs about now, something has to be done.
 
Remembering that innocent until proven guilty doesn't apply to parts of the DDA...
I have experience of this law both personally and via people who have direct experience..

I have not said that things will happen in given situations.. but they may.. there is a risk.. and this is true.
 
Sure.

The same way there is a risk you might be arrested and found guilty for murder because you frequented a rough area at night, and tried to help a dying man and ended up with his blood all over you and the knife used to kill him in your hand.

Sit happens. I get that.

I don't live in fear of it though.

I take precautions as I see fit.

:)
 
highlandsflyer":2n8dntur said:
I don't live in fear of it though.

I take precautions as I see fit.

:)

Holy moly neither do I.. that would be bad - and no fun at all .. helps to be aware though.. 8)
 
IDB1":3juefg8t said:
Remembering that innocent until proven guilty doesn't apply to parts of the DDA...
There are other recent implementations of law where it's effectively reversed, too - some aspects of RIPA (where effectively, the burden of proof would fall on you to prove yourself innocent), and how GATSOs have mainly been implemented.

If you get a letter through the post about a car with your number plate having been caught by a GATSO (and this isn't some bitter rant, I've never had one...) assuming it either wasn't your car (perhaps cloned number plate) or wasn't you driving, the burden will effectively be on you to prove your innocence.

These things get slowly eroded over time, because the trite argument in favour is always that almost Daily-Mail-esque proposition.
 
highlandsflyer":1y96rz38 said:
There seems to be some misunderstanding about the nature of the Law here.

If you have a bald tyre you will be cautioned and required to amend the problem within a time frame, or face a penalty. the authorities are not required to give you this leeway, but they are doing so as it has been established as best practice to do so, although the officers retain discretion so remember to be polite to them...
I know about defect notices, and I know discretion can always apply. And I get the attitude test thing - but do TOs really let people off that easily for a bald tyre? Perhaps if it was bald on one side - ie worn unevenly, and not that noticable - but a tyre that was just worn out universally - they'd really let that slide, if you minded your Ps and Qs?
 
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