Differences between 1991 Zaskar and Pantera

[Kult Friction]

Re: Re:

Whilst the '92 Pantera looks almost indistinguishable from a Zaskar once it's been stripped there is one subtle difference, in that the headtube/toptube gusset is a slightly different shape.

With the Zaskar, the weld that goes under the toptube is fairly straight and is at roughly 90 degree's to the horizontal welds along the toptube giving it a squared appearance at it's furthest point from the headtube, Almost like it's three separate welds.

With the Pantera it's a lot more rounded and appears like it's one single continuous weld in an almost crescent shape running from the headtube, under the toptube and back to the headtube again on the other side, Subsequently it looks less squared off at the back edge, They also don't look as long as the Zaskar gusset, but this may be an optical illusion because of the slight difference in profile.

If you do an A/B comparison and flick between images of the two frames in bare alloy you'll hopefully see what I mean, Maybe...

That's brilliant, I'd not heard that mentioned before.

My frame has a singly riveted cable stop (and the angled weld as described above).

My somewhat geeky engineering eye for detail has it's uses sometimes, So I'm pleased to be of service

 

[SeeingisBelievingGTMuseum]

Re:

There is no such thing as a 1991 Pantera. 1992 was the first model year...Of coarse production on the 92 model likely began in 9/91. All Pantera's should be stamped 7005 on the rear dropouts they should also have a serial number that begins with an "H1" or "H2" as they were built at Taiwan-Hodaka. All 92 Zaskars and Zaskar LE's had the same frame...Alcoa 6061 and the first four digits of the serial numbers begin with the month and year of manufacture i.e. 0192 is a 92 model year bike. Zaskars did not have a replaceable hanger until the 1993 model year. Both had a flat top tube end cap.

92 Zaskar LE

 

[SeeingisBelievingGTMuseum]

Re: Re:

Whilst the '92 Pantera looks almost indistinguishable from a Zaskar once it's been stripped there is one subtle difference, in that the headtube/toptube gusset is a slightly different shape.

With the Zaskar, the weld that goes under the toptube is fairly straight and is at roughly 90 degree's to the horizontal welds along the toptube giving it a squared appearance at it's furthest point from the headtube, Almost like it's three separate welds.

With the Pantera it's a lot more rounded and appears like it's one single continuous weld in an almost crescent shape running from the headtube, under the toptube and back to the headtube again on the other side, Subsequently it looks less squared off at the back edge, They also don't look as long as the Zaskar gusset, but this may be an optical illusion because of the slight difference in profile.

If you do an A/B comparison and flick between images of the two frames in bare alloy you'll hopefully see what I mean, Maybe...

That's brilliant, I'd not heard that mentioned before.

My frame has a singly riveted cable stop (and the angled weld as described above).

My somewhat geeky engineering eye for detail has it's uses sometimes, So I'm pleased to be of service

Don;t agree that detail depends upon the size so you need to be looking at the same frame size of each.

 

[Blackstar]

Re: Re:

There is no such thing as a 1991 Pantera. 1992 was the first model year...Of coarse production on the 92 model likely began in 9/91. All Pantera's should be stamped 7005 on the rear dropouts they should also have a serial number that begins with an "H1" or "H2" as they were built at Taiwan-Hodaka. All 92 Zaskars and Zaskar LE's had the same frame...Alcoa 6061 and the first four digits of the serial numbers begin with the month and year of manufacture i.e. 0192 is a 92 model year bike. Zaskars did not have a replaceable hanger until the 1993 model year. Both had a flat top tube end cap.

+1

 

[Void(EN12-82)]

Thanx for all the info guys...

Amazing though, how many people missed the "the serial seems to be filed off" in my first post :-D LOL

Also, I've heard the "6061 should be stamped somewhere" before, but both this frame and my previous 1992 Zaskar LE frame had neither the 6061 or the size (both 16") stamped on the dropouts. On the other hand, there's no 7005 to be found anywhere on this frame either, the drive side dropout hasn't been touched, but I can clearly feel a "sort of trench" running along the NDS dropout right there where my 1992 Zaskar had it's serial number, the metal gets thinner there and thicker below and above that again...

Just never saw those double rivetted cable stops before so I was thinking "hey maybe that's Pantera style" ;-) But maybe that's 1991 style then?

BTW: Did the Pantera also have the serial on the dropout or below the BB shell?

 

[Kult Friction]

Re: Re:

Don;t agree that detail depends upon the size so you need to be looking at the same frame size of each.[/quote]

I couldn't agree more, Of course you need the same size frame. As with any controlled comparison you need to keep the parameters equal, subsequently reducing the variables which may lead to inconsistencies in results, which is exactly how I came to my conclusion.

My finding is based on owning both a '92 Pantera and a '92 Zaskar LE in the same size at the same time, thus enabling me to closely critique both first hand. Anyone can look at a catalogue but that's no substitute for first hand experience and back in the day it wasn't unusual for manufacturers to change spec from catalogue due to print versus product release date and likewise when a new model is released, It's not unheard of for manufacturers to paint an existing similar frame to look like the forthcoming model if it wasn't ready for the catalogue print, again generally due to catalogues being produced in advance.

We all know just by looking at the catalogue there was no '91 Pantera in the line up, the OP was simply asking if there was, But as we know the Zaskar was the first Aluminium frame to be produced by GT, This again is why I was making a comparison of both models from '92, when both the Pantera and Zaskar were available and spec'd with U-brakes.

Ultimately, going back to the op's question and the point of this thread as I understand it, It is of what model it is as he clearly states the frame number has been removed, so serial is no use otherwise it would have been a no brainer, and unless the op is prepared to remove some materiel from the frame for chemical analysis, he's not going to be able to tell if it's 6061 or 7005 so again not very helpful given what we know of the frame. Which just leaves the visual test, and the one that I have shared my 2p of first hand knowledge of how to distinguish between the two based on my own experience of having them side by side.

 

[Blackstar]

missing serial

...

Amazing though, how many people missed the "the serial seems to be filed off" in my first post :-D LOL

bugger :facepalm:

seems a bit sus that the serial's scratched off..

A good photo of the top tube gusset would be handy..

 

[Blackstar]

early Zaskar vs Pantera - top tube gusset comparison

...

Ultimately, going back to the op's question and the point of this thread as I understand it, It is of what model it is as he clearly states the frame number has been removed, so serial is no use otherwise it would have been a no brainer, and unless the op is prepared to remove some materiel from the frame for chemical analysis, he's not going to be able to tell if it's 6061 or 7005 so again not very helpful given what we know of the frame. Which just leaves the visual test, and the one that I have shared my 2p of first hand knowledge of how to distinguish between the two based on my own experience of having them side by side.

the single / double cable rivets may be a difference

with the difference in gusset shapes, what was the frame size?

photos seem to agree - the zaskars is more squared off than a pantera:

although GM may have seen otherwise...

 

[Kult Friction]

Re: Re:

My bikes were both 18" but since then I've also bought a '92 19" Zaskar LE and I've also seen a '92 16" Pantera and the same detail difference is evident on these other model sizes confirming (to me at least) this is a design/manufacturing feature and not size specific, ie anomalies in design sometimes found with XS and XL frame's.

 

[Void(EN12-82)]

Well,

Here's some close-up pictures of the headtube portion... I see what Kult Friction means, but mine is a bit more crescent shaped than the Zaskar in his picture (a nice one btw!!):



And here's the cable-stop, my 1992 had just one rivet to hold it to the frame: