Information wanted about Beryl Burton & the frames she used

[Old Ned]

There was some film of BB on 'Look North' tonight. She's been posthumously granted the freedom of Leeds and Denise and Charlie were there to receive it. The film of her in action showed her riding a Raleigh in classic TI Raleigh Red and Black - fitted out with full Campagnolo.

Also included was some B&W of early days and I think she was riding a fixed gear Mercian.

 

[stringfellow1946]

OK I've take your advice & very very reluctantly re joined the raleigh yahoo group (against my better judgement) in the forlorn hope that some one on there might know something positive about this frame.

 

[keithglos]

Re:

Is it possible to ask Denise, our memories are somewhat earlier, from when we had to travel to get to ladies events.
Keith

 

[stringfellow1946]

Re: Re:

Is it possible to ask Denise, our memories are somewhat earlier, from when we had to travel to get to ladies events.
Keith

Hi Keith thank you for the suggestion. One minor problem or two, is that I don't know the lady & I've no idea how to get in contact with her.
Any ideas on that one??

Chris

 

[keithglos]

Re:

Chris, anyone in the Morley perhaps?

I saw her in a television program about 3 or 4 years ago, and didn't recognise her. Denise would be about 54 or 55 now. Our memories are a bit old, I have a pic of my twins aged about 6 sitting on a bench with Denise about 8.
Not much help really.

Keith

 

[roadking]

Re:

I am reluctant to get involved in discussions about SBDU frames, and with all due respect; every Tom, Dick and Harry purports to be an expert.

Provenance is a key issue, unless there is evidence, written (invoice, letter etc), or a"linking"photograph of the item in question then there is NO evidence - someone saying this was owned by so-and-so is not enough (unless the someone is directly connected with the item).

My view is this, and it is only my opinion. Unless you have any of the above (which you do not) then the frame cannot claim to have been owned by a"famous"person (it is a fraudulent claim).

BB may have ridden this frame (she may not have owned it though), and the SBDU were very keen to supply frames in team livery (personally I get so very bored looking at SBDU team frames), mine is not in team livery and yes, Shaun's recollection is correct my DoB is on my frame but this is confirmed on my invoice.

Regarding Mike Mullett, I believe he left the SBDU in or around 1981 (I'm sure the dates are in the public domain), so this frame would be outside his"tenure". He certainly was not there when I made visits to Ilkeston. With regard to specification (ownership irrelevant) cyclists were (in the 70s and 80s*) a pretty conservative bunch and TTers would use the three arm TA chainset as it was light, as were Weinmann 500 brakes - for example.

Rk.

*especially the more mature ones!
N.B if a particular seller can be traced, then they may be able to confirm or deny provenance (evidence is still needed to support the"provenance claim").

 

[stringfellow1946]

Re: Re:

I am reluctant to get involved in discussions about SBDU frames, and with all due respect; every Tom, Dick and Harry purports to be an expert.

Provenance is a key issue, unless there is evidence, written (invoice, letter etc), or a"linking"photograph of the item in question then there is NO evidence - someone saying this was owned by so-and-so is not enough (unless the someone is directly connected with the item).

My view is this, and it is only my opinion. Unless you have any of the above (which you do not) then the frame cannot claim to have been owned by a"famous"person (it is a fraudulent claim).

BB may have ridden this frame (she may not have owned it though), and the SBDU were very keen to supply frames in team livery (personally I get so very bored looking at SBDU team frames), mine is not in team livery and yes, Shaun's recollection is correct my DoB is on my frame but this is confirmed on my invoice.

Regarding Mike Mullett, I believe he left the SBDU in or around 1981 (I'm sure the dates are in the public domain), so this frame would be outside his"tenure". He certainly was not there when I made visits to Ilkeston. With regard to specification (ownership irrelevant) cyclists were (in the 70s and 80s*) a pretty conservative bunch and TTers would use the three arm TA chainset as it was light, as were Weinmann 500 brakes - for example.

Rk.

*especially the more mature ones!
N.B if a particular seller can be traced, then they may be able to confirm or deny provenance (evidence is still needed to support the"provenance claim").

Very well put roadking & my sentiments entirely.
Without documentary evidence its just another old raleigh frame.
I agree every man & his dog is an expert (or so they think) on Raleigh's, Colnago's, or whatever. That is why I am trying to prove or dis prove the original seller's (HS) statement that this was one of BB Frames.
NB I've been back in contact with the guy I bought the frame from & he was not supplied with any written or photographic evidence when he originally bought it from HS.

Like I said earlier in the thread I CAN NOT FIND any photographs of BB riding this particular frame or any Low Pro frame for that matter, (That doesn't mean that there isn't some out there somewhere).
This is why I've put it on here & on the Raleigh Yahoo group in the hope that this can be finally put to bed once & for all.
On a personal note I don't particularly care one way or the other if this was BB frame or not, the only interest for me is that its a Low Pro with a 24" front wheel & I wanted one for the collection.

Chris

 

[stringfellow1946]

Ok I'm now 100% convinced that this IS NOT the Genuine article that it was orignally made out to be? NOW THER"S A SURPRISE !!

I have now removed the forks to check the number & low & behold it has the number 6298 stamped on to them.
Where as the frame has SB 6303 stamped on to the Bottom bracket shell.
So somewhere down the line the forks have been replaced!!

I was very suspicious before as all the Raleigh Panasonic team coloured bikes I've seen in photos have Blue forks where as this one has White forks & to my eye the White on the forks is different to the White on the frame.

The only saving grace from this little saga is
1, that it isn't life or Death and
2, at £324 for a SBDU F&F including a Super Record Headset its OK, being as I didn't have a 24" wheeled Low pro in the collection.

NB This should teach as all a very valuable lesson "Don't Believe anything anyone tells you unless they can back it up with documentary evidence" NO Matter who they are.

 

[FINNEY1973]

Your search has mirrored mine, I couldn't substantiate the story and couldn't therefore justify the spend. Certainly a valuable lesson for any buyer blinded by the kudos of a famous owner, or not as the case may be. Little bit naughty that the numbers don't match - that certainly wasn't advertised by a certain 'retail' seller.

Still a very nice frame, and at £324 that's 25% of the first listing on ebay by the person you bought from. I have period wheels for such a frame if you're interested btw.

 

[gavr]

Re:

Certainly a valuable lesson for any buyer blinded by the kudos of a famous owner, or not as the case may be. Little bit naughty that the numbers don't match - that certainly wasn't advertised by a certain 'retail' seller.

Buyer beware for sure - no proof, no association, I've no problem with that. I'm just not sure that I'm understanding this thread - in fact I don't know how to take it at all. Let me explain:

The OP bought the frameset, fully suspecting that it wasn't what it was said to be. In his own words:

"I’ve just got hold of a frame that was supposedly built for the great lady by Raleigh SBDU. (yea & the worlds Flat)."

In fact he tells us this even before he says that he has the item in his possession - so he was under no illusions.

He goes on to say that he knows little about English frames and he asks for information about BB and the bikes that she rode. When offered snippetts of advice i.e. that BB did ride SBDU bikes, he says he knows it all already. He then leaves the matter barely 48 hours and draws a line under the thread.

BB became famous in the sixties and, as many here will know better than I, continued to ride competitvely well into the eighties, in short she was/is a legend. However, she's been dead now for nearly 20 years, her family, friends and club mates have grown older and yet they're expected to be avid followers of Retrobike and to produce answers on demand. We've even found a helpful statement on the authoratative timetrialling forum dating from 2007, well before this frame was offered for sale and from a former club mate, that says clearly that she tried lo-pro bikes at the time. I'd have thought that this might have piqued some interest, since it appears to be all that there is out there on the internet.

"I have now removed the forks to check the number & low & behold it has the number 6298 stamped on to them. Where as the frame has SB 6303 stamped on to the Bottom bracket shell."

These forks would probably have been made on the same day, never mind in the same week. What prospect of finding them on ebay as a replacement? The answers to these questions need more time and consideration. What is the overall geometry of the frame, was it built for a short fork? The OP might find his suspicions are correct but he went into the transaction with his eyes open, for the rest of us let's now see how this all plays out...