Woolwich attack

[OrangeJase]

Im all for our criminal justice system using due process stc.However lets not forget that a man was brutally murdered in the street in exceptional circumstances and while I agree that kneejerk reactions and revenge attacks are most certainly not the way to go,this kind of attack and indeed this kind of crime needs to be dealt with harshly.
There are indeed innocent casualties of wars involving British forces but there are many innocent victims of terrorism and oppressive regimes.
I do not believe our forces should be in Afghanistan,or any other muslim country for that matter,but the fact is they are there and they are the people who under different circumstances would protect every one of us with their lives.Should they expect to be able to have our support and walk down the street in their own country despite the fact they are having to fight in a country where most of them probably dont want to be?Of course they should.
I am in favour of capital punishment when guilt for this type of crime can be proved beyond the shadow of doubt.There is ,Iagree,no proof that any balance will be redressed but,does someone who commit this type of crime really deserve to live amongst the majority of law abiding people in the world.

 

[OrangeJase]

You do make a valid point about investigating their crimes and gaining information.However a lifetime in jail is not necessarily the punishment it probably needs to be.
However many people commit evil crimes and I do think it would cause them pause if their own life was at stake.Im not suggesting it would end all murder but it may save a few lives.In the case of multiple murderers who plainly have no chance of reform or in the case of this terrorist who by his own admission and in recent evidence would have no qualms about commiting this same offence again.

 

[technodup]

As far as 'holier than thou'; who is? The people who, with no evidence, assume the taking of a life is going to redress some balance or deter offenders?

I don't know what evidence you need to see that if we executed these cnuts there would be balance. In fact it would be in our favour 2:1.

I would insist our societal values need not account for those of other nations. We make our own laws and follow our own path. We don't consult Somalia to form our policy on pirates, we don't go to Iran looking for answers on adultery. We value due process over summary execution.

What we really value is the 'right' for people to basically do as they like regardless of the consequences for others. Or so we are told. I believe proper control and punishment in schools would be welcomed. I believe the death penalty would be welcomed for certain crimes. I believe the rights of children and their families trump the rights of the likes of Jon Venables to have a quiet life. I don't care if death isn't a deterrent because prison demonstrably isn't. At least if they're dead they're not doing it again and they're not costing us money. We can have due process and execution, the two aren't mutually exclusive.

We could do worse than look to other states for inspiration. We do it all the time anyway, be it healthcare, schooling, immigration etc. Trouble is we only seem to look to other pussy euro states with the same liberal outlook we purport to have. That's working well.

Sometimes I forget I am on Retrobike and think I'm reading CIF.

 

[Bram J]

Imagine there's no heaven
It's easy if you try
No hell below us
Above us only sky
Imagine all the people living for today

Imagine there's no countries
It isn't hard to do
Nothing to kill or die for
And no religion too
Imagine all the people living life in peace

...

song will never get old,
unfortunately...

 

[ajm]

Once we go down the road of killing people in the name of justice we will be just the same as regimes like Iran, Saudi and the rest. The same beast in different clothes.

I'm not at all sure about that (though I have actually agreed with quite a bit of what you've said so far.)

There is a huge difference between executing someone because their neighbour has claimed to the authorities that they said that Muhammad wasn't all he was cracked up to be, and on the other hand executing someone when there is conclusive proof that they have committed a deliberate, premeditated and vicious act of murder.

I think twice about flushing a spider down the toilet, don't eat animals if I can avoid it and abhor bloodshed - and yet I'd still back the death penalty (administered in as reliable, rapid and painless a way as possible) for such cases where there is no reasonable doubt whatsoever.

I accept that there would still be occasional miscarriages of justice carried out, but as it stands justice is not being served in any of these cases.

 

[ajm]

BramJ - that song is retarded claptrap, and I say that as someone who owns every Beatles album on CD; John Lennon may have had a quick wit and some occasional musical genius but he was hardly a wise man. If you seriously believe that without religion there would be no violence or murder then I'm sorry to say I think you have insufficient understanding of the human nature to be allowed out in public without a carer.

 

[Bram J]

BramJ - that song is retarded claptrap, and I say that as someone who owns every Beatles album on CD; John Lennon may have had a quick wit and some occasional musical genius but he was hardly a wise man. If you seriously believe that without religion there would be no violence or murder then I'm sorry to say I think you have insufficient understanding of the human nature to be allowed out in public without a carer.

I don't claim that. But I do claim we would have less violence and murder.
Religion divides people, enables demagogs to put people up against eachother, and is, when it comes down to it, utter bullshit.

'I think you have insufficient understanding of the human nature to be allowed out in public without a carer.'
Pathetic.

 

[Bram J]

Death penalty is bullshit too BTW.
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Did I just agree with Highlandsflyer? :shock:

 

[ajm]

People will find any number of reasons for division and supposing religion didn't exist they'd be killing each other for being different shades of brown, for coming from a different family, for being born in a particular village. Sad but true.

I should of course point out that I am not in any way excusing what was done in the name of Islam, and nor am I denying that Islam in particular has a long and apparently "theologically justified" history of treating non-Muslim human beings as nothing better than animals; on the other hand, anti-theistic regimes have done just the same things using Darwinism as their god, with the justification of "science". People will justify their hate using any means at all.

I am quite sure that the majority of Muslims in this country and possibly worldwide are perfectly decent and compassionate people who are every bit as horrified at the act in question as I am; whether they're being entirely true to their own religion in that I can't say with any certainty.

 

[Bram J]

People will find any number of reasons for division and supposing religion didn't exist they'd be killing each other for being different shades of brown, for coming from a different family, for being born in a particular village. Sad but true.

I should of course point out that I am not in any way excusing what was done in the name of Islam, and nor am I denying that Islam in particular has a long and apparently "theologically justified" history of treating non-Muslim human beings as nothing better than animals; on the other hand, anti-theistic regimes have done just the same things using Darwinism as their god, with the justification of "science". People will justify their hate using any means at all.

I am quite sure that the majority of Muslims in this country and possibly worldwide are perfectly decent and compassionate people who are every bit as horrified at the act in question as I am; whether they're being entirely true to their own religion in that I can't say with any certainty.

I think religion in itself can make people hate eachother.
Of course some groups abuse religion to accomplish their agenda, and these groups would abuse whatever theory, belief, etc. possible to accomplish their goals. However, sometimes it is just religion in itself that causes hatred and although I stand for the right of everyone to believe whatever they want, I think a world without religion would be a better one.