Value for money components.
- Thread starter Corblimeyguv
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Re:
the price v quality debate will rage. Remember when mercs were indestructible, and heavily represented in every taxi rank across the globe until Merc needed to raise money in US capital markets and realised that once included all costs like pensions etc that actually the company was loss making, so they reduced quality and for a while their reputation was in the gutter. No one wants to make something that lasts for ever...
the flip side is that if you are not prepared to pay then you won't get quality, peanuts and monkeys etc
the price v quality debate will rage. Remember when mercs were indestructible, and heavily represented in every taxi rank across the globe until Merc needed to raise money in US capital markets and realised that once included all costs like pensions etc that actually the company was loss making, so they reduced quality and for a while their reputation was in the gutter. No one wants to make something that lasts for ever...
the flip side is that if you are not prepared to pay then you won't get quality, peanuts and monkeys etc
Corblimeyguv
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Thanks for all the responses so far
I know it's a never-ending discussion but i'm glad I asked it because all the replies have valid points. Me, I buy what I know and like. Mainly Shimano for familiarity and ease of mixing and matching. I like STX components but Alivio is on my radar too.
As for XTR, i've never owned any but I do have a splattering of LX and XT.
Like everything else it comes down to money and my main goal is value for money. I must admit I get surprised by how much some stuff sells for but I never judge, I prefer to be educated and enjoy the variety of items on here.
Thanks for all the responses so far
I know it's a never-ending discussion but i'm glad I asked it because all the replies have valid points. Me, I buy what I know and like. Mainly Shimano for familiarity and ease of mixing and matching. I like STX components but Alivio is on my radar too.
As for XTR, i've never owned any but I do have a splattering of LX and XT.
Like everything else it comes down to money and my main goal is value for money. I must admit I get surprised by how much some stuff sells for but I never judge, I prefer to be educated and enjoy the variety of items on here.
TheAntsPants
Devout Dirtbag
I've got a CK headset and it's worked flawlessly, but I wouldn't buy it again. It is not self-centreing and relies on very tight tolerances. This means that the head tube needs to be perfectly square. Also, cleaning, repacking and replacing bearings is a pain compared to other headsets (and yes, it must be done occasionally).
The merc analogy is interesting. I've had 3 cars in the last 30 years. All Volvo estates. I do a lot of miles. Ist 1990, 32k new. Second 2002, 32k new. Third 2008, 30k new. The last v70, before being discontinued was 27k for the same spec. Hang on, based on the 1st car the new one should now be 55k!
What's changed, well it's all thin plastic and steel that snaps / bends in the wind, the chassis and suspension is rubbish and wont see 100k and the interior is plastic and nasty.
The reasons its changed is the same as the declining quality of shimano parts in a parative groupset. Nobody would buy it if it was at a true inflationary cost. But by buying it you can still say "it's got shimano xt on it". Trading on the notion of past quality.
If I now ( or my company) spent 55k on a car it would (you hope) be better built than a 25k Volvo. But the 25k Volvo is still badged as the same model as the last 3 cars.
Same goes for your crank, spend 200 and get a great bit of kit, but DO NOT expect a budget xt " share holder friendly" product to be what is was 30 years ago.
Nothing is in terms of engineering and build quality at the same price as 30 years ago!
What's changed, well it's all thin plastic and steel that snaps / bends in the wind, the chassis and suspension is rubbish and wont see 100k and the interior is plastic and nasty.
The reasons its changed is the same as the declining quality of shimano parts in a parative groupset. Nobody would buy it if it was at a true inflationary cost. But by buying it you can still say "it's got shimano xt on it". Trading on the notion of past quality.
If I now ( or my company) spent 55k on a car it would (you hope) be better built than a 25k Volvo. But the 25k Volvo is still badged as the same model as the last 3 cars.
Same goes for your crank, spend 200 and get a great bit of kit, but DO NOT expect a budget xt " share holder friendly" product to be what is was 30 years ago.
Nothing is in terms of engineering and build quality at the same price as 30 years ago!
Oh no, dont get me wrong, there are loads of advances. I'm glad things in most cases are not what the used to be!
But expecting a product that's now effectively half the price it was to be the same quality as before, is wishful thinking bordering on deluded.
Of course the old shimano stuff is better quality, but mainly because your not comparing alike items at a parative cost.
But expecting a product that's now effectively half the price it was to be the same quality as before, is wishful thinking bordering on deluded.
Of course the old shimano stuff is better quality, but mainly because your not comparing alike items at a parative cost.
Case in point. If it's Shimano and says Japan, it's good regardless if it's old STX, LX or whatever.
The moment the lower end stuff got off-shored and produced in Indonesia / Singapore there is marked decrease in material quality, assembly precision and above all a deliberate re-design just for more efficient production.
On the outside, the products are comparable; it's the parts you don't see that have changed. Do not believe the hype of Shimano trickle down technology - the ideas and design have trickled down, but the engineering and material quality has not. I read some
of the guff from the bike review press and it simply is not true that you are finding 20 year old XT quality in today's Alivio.
The moment the lower end stuff got off-shored and produced in Indonesia / Singapore there is marked decrease in material quality, assembly precision and above all a deliberate re-design just for more efficient production.
On the outside, the products are comparable; it's the parts you don't see that have changed. Do not believe the hype of Shimano trickle down technology - the ideas and design have trickled down, but the engineering and material quality has not. I read some
of the guff from the bike review press and it simply is not true that you are finding 20 year old XT quality in today's Alivio.
Re:
Interesting thread, been thinking about this lately.
Based on some of the comments above, I wonder if the following is true: do companies now tend to over-engineer mid- and entry level components when they launch them, then gradually downgrade parts and materials as they discover what they can get away with?
It would make some sense: you don't want to launch something and have it get a terrible reputation in the first 2 years. That happened with Sora, for example.
If so, would something like SRAM's lower end Eagle stuff be a good investment now, since that is perhaps still in the over engineered phase (mostly steel sprockets, for example)?
Interesting thread, been thinking about this lately.
Based on some of the comments above, I wonder if the following is true: do companies now tend to over-engineer mid- and entry level components when they launch them, then gradually downgrade parts and materials as they discover what they can get away with?
It would make some sense: you don't want to launch something and have it get a terrible reputation in the first 2 years. That happened with Sora, for example.
If so, would something like SRAM's lower end Eagle stuff be a good investment now, since that is perhaps still in the over engineered phase (mostly steel sprockets, for example)?
I was going to put a roady example, but you opened that door. I've pulled STI Tiagra to bits, and the Japan stuff is tip-top.
The moment the design then goes off to be the new Sora +3 or 4 years it's downhill. Sure it works, but it's night and day. The logic goes further to pressed steel shit in much lower ends.
Oddly, I always consider say XTR and Dura-Ace the odd ball. So much "new" functionality and some abrupt design changes get's added to the flagship gruppos. And now let's be honest in some cases they get the cutting edge ideas wrong and it doesn't make the XT trickle down grade....because...it was errr.....crap. Or even, they insist and then it goes really tits up for Shimano.
Always thought XT and LX and Ultegra and 105 got you the best deal - proven ideas in action, tweaked quality engineering and sound production without cutting corners where it matters.
The moment the design then goes off to be the new Sora +3 or 4 years it's downhill. Sure it works, but it's night and day. The logic goes further to pressed steel shit in much lower ends.
Oddly, I always consider say XTR and Dura-Ace the odd ball. So much "new" functionality and some abrupt design changes get's added to the flagship gruppos. And now let's be honest in some cases they get the cutting edge ideas wrong and it doesn't make the XT trickle down grade....because...it was errr.....crap. Or even, they insist and then it goes really tits up for Shimano.
Always thought XT and LX and Ultegra and 105 got you the best deal - proven ideas in action, tweaked quality engineering and sound production without cutting corners where it matters.
