So my earlier thread / too many injuries enough now - really bad news and it feels they delayed it…cynical

[2manyoranges]

https://www.pinkbike.com/news/fundr...-spinal-injury-from-rampage-finals-crash.html

 

[wynne]

I agree with your views on this. I bet there is pressure on riders from every direction to compete in these events.

I respected Manon Carpenter when she retired. It takes real bottle to say no.

 

[bikeworkshop]

I dont get why red bull isn't fully liable.
It's not like they can't afford it, and they made it happen.

 

[Frankenorange]

they made it happen.

They provide the course and the prize, but they didn't make anyone do it. It would be a fine gesture if they do help the guy out, but it will just be the same as a lot of sports where you sign on the dotted line that you take reaponsibility , for what you do, and the organiser is off the hook. Of the hook as long as what saftey measures were taken that could be taken, anyway.
Maybe from now on there will be height limits, to the drop offs, as i think that is where the problem lies. Maybe an outright ban on more than one somersault? Maybe only one direction of rotation?

The riders choose to ride Rampage and not just ride it, but attempt, and in most cases succeed, to do more crazy tricks than the the other riders. What is at fault is the human condition of wanting to always test the limits of height, distance, speed, etc for no other reason than have other humans clap. What we do as humans is really quite odd and i don't think there are any other creatures that do mad, life threatening things, like we do unless they really have to for food, or save their skins.

Although a lot of people would agree that it is sad that this poor chap is now disabled they would also wonder why on earth they do what they do. Some would probably say, well serves him right and great job on messing up other peoples lives who now have to look after you for the next 50 years.

What i would like to see; if there is any good to come out of this sad incident is a proper study of what injuries the helmet design may have caused.

Did the visor contribute to snapping the head back for example?

I say this because it has reminded me of a rally car crash where the navigator ended up disabled. The crash was incredibly violent and for some reason the navigator moved forward a great deal, towards the windscreen. Maybe the harness broke/stretched?.
Anyway....he was wearing an open face helmet that had a visor and the visor wedged between the horizontal tube of the rollcage, that bridges behind the top of the a-pillars, and the roof. The visor didn't breakaway sufficiently and effectively bent his head and neck back ,in a way nature did not intend, as the body was still moving forward.

In the last year, or so, i have played around with a whole bunch of different helmets and I was really quite surprised at how some visors are quite resistant to breaking off. The dodgy ones , that i question the safety of, are the helmets that have a moulded lip that the visor butts up against. Looks all smooth and stuff, but surely that is asking for trouble?

Maybe, one day, Virginia Tech will stop ******* about doing tests with head dummies that don't have hair, a cotton cap, a beanie, etc ,that affect real world helmet performnce, and do a visor breakaway test.

 

[bikeworkshop]

I get that, but it's a bit like letting the dealers off and criminalising only the users.

Mind you, I think the UCI was guiltier than Lance - they knew what was happening, but got none of the blame.

 

[2manyoranges]

They provide the course and the prize, but they didn't make anyone do it. It would be a fine gesture if they do help the guy out, but it will just be the same as a lot of sports where you sign on the dotted line that you take reaponsibility , for what you do, and the organiser is off the hook. Of the hook as long as what saftey measures were taken that could be taken, anyway.
Maybe from now on there will be height limits, to the drop offs, as i think that is where the problem lies. Maybe an outright ban on more than one somersault? Maybe only one direction of rotation?

The riders choose to ride Rampage and not just ride it, but attempt, and in most cases succeed, to do more crazy tricks than the the other riders. What is at fault is the human condition of wanting to always test the limits of height, distance, speed, etc for no other reason than have other humans clap. What we do as humans is really quite odd and i don't think there are any other creatures that do mad, life threatening things, like we do unless they really have to for food, or save their skins.

Although a lot of people would agree that it is sad that this poor chap is now disabled they would also wonder why on earth they do what they do. Some would probably say, well serves him right and great job on messing up other peoples lives who now have to look after you for the next 50 years.

What i would like to see; if there is any good to come out of this sad incident is a proper study of what injuries the helmet design may have caused.

Did the visor contribute to snapping the head back for example?

I say this because it has reminded me of a rally car crash where the navigator ended up disabled. The crash was incredibly violent and for some reason the navigator moved forward a great deal, towards the windscreen. Maybe the harness broke/stretched?.
Anyway....he was wearing an open face helmet that had a visor and the visor wedged between the horizontal tube of the rollcage, that bridges behind the top of the a-pillars, and the roof. The visor didn't breakaway sufficiently and effectively bent his head and neck back ,in a way nature did not intend, as the body was still moving forward.

In the last year, or so, i have played around with a whole bunch of different helmets and I was really quite surprised at how some visors are quite resistant to breaking off. The dodgy ones , that i question the safety of, are the helmets that have a moulded lip that the visor butts up against. Looks all smooth and stuff, but surely that is asking for trouble?

Maybe, one day, Virginia Tech will stop ******* about doing tests with head dummies that don't have hair, a cotton cap, a beanie, etc ,that affect real world helmet performnce, and do a visor breakaway test.

Er....up to a point Lord Copper. I resist speculation in such cases since the details are not clear yet. What has been said is that his movement is compromised below the chest. This suggests thoracic rather than cervical injury, although this is merely speculation. But to extrapolate from the current account of his injury to the visor being a problem and hyperflexion of the neck being the cause is a jump too far at this stage.

'...Nearly one week after his Rampage finals crash after attempting a double backflip drop, the latest update on Silva's condition is that he has a serious spinal injury. The report on Silva's injuries said he has no sensation from the chest down, but it stated that it's "simply too early for anyone to know what the future holds; only time, healing, and his body’s own signals will tell..." (Pinkbike news)

On helmets....

Helmet design is proceeding fast. That includes absolute awareness of the importance of rotational brain injury and additional loads created by visors and other features of the helmet, including overall weight of the helmet. POC and Bell visors break away readily.

Some experiences:

Chin bars can increase rotation, but having had 6000 gbp worth of dental surgery after a road cycling incident and an open face helmet (almost certainly wrong gritting compound by local authority) I appreciate the humble chin bar. I ride off road with a full face, and mostly when I commute.

Grom had a Big One in CH, whilst downhilling. The helmet - a Bell Super DH - lost its visor instantly, protected his head brilliantly, no concussion despite huge slam, cracked interior and exterior to helmet, large friction skin damage on his jaw and no other facial damage at all. No rotational damage to cervical part of spine despite massive force applied to side of helmet.

In 2000 I had a very big off. Lots of damage including a bone outside the body which is not where a bone should be. 8 hours of amnesia. When I came around the consultant held up the helmet and said 'this saved your life'.

 

[clubby]

A certain type of person will do dumb whatever. Doesn't need to be an event evolved. Gee Atherton's Ridgeline obsession springs to mind. How many huge crashes has he had? He was filming a video part at the time, but I'm sure he's be out doing it anyway, as that's what drives him.
Also look at base jumping, proximity flying etc. Lots of participant are actively trying to avoid attention, but do it anyway. It's just at Rampage and such events that there area lot of people doing it all at once and in front of media. These type of injuries have always happened in extreme sports, it's just now that it's instantly broadcast all round the world.

To the title of the thread, yes you are being extremely cynical. The news wasn't delayed deliberately, that's just how long it takes to see how the initial injury/ inflammation settles down and allow his condition to be properly assessed. In this type of injury, initial swelling can reduce, relieving pressure on nerves and allowing normal function to resume quickly. Other cases, not, but you have to wait and see.

 

[clubby]

Some experiences:

Chin bars can increase rotation, but having had 6000 gbp worth of dental surgery after a road cycling incident and an open face helmet (almost certainly wrong gritting compound by local authority) I appreciate the humble chin bar. I ride off road with a full face, and mostly when I commute.

Grom had a Big One in CH, whilst downhilling. The helmet - a Bell Super DH - lost its visor instantly, protected his head brilliantly, no concussion despite huge slam, cracked interior and exterior to helmet, large friction skin damage on his jaw and no other facial damage at all. No rotational damage to cervical part of spine despite massive force applied to side of helmet.

In 2000 I had a very big off. Lots of damage including a bone outside the body which is not where a bone should be. 8 hours of amnesia. When I came around the consultant held up the helmet and said 'this saved your life'.

So should we stop you from riding?
I broke my collarbone 11 years ago in Whistler Bike Park, should I only ride green trails now?

I have recent experience of peaks coming off. My 6 year old had fall last weekend. Landed on his helmet which took the brunt of it, but the peak detached and cut his forehead. Had to go to A&E to get the flap glued together.

 

[2manyoranges]

So should we stop you from riding?
I broke my collarbone 11 years ago in Whistler Bike Park, should I only ride green trails now?

I have recent experience of peaks coming off. My 6 year old had fall last weekend. Landed on his helmet which took the brunt of it, but the peak detached and cut his forehead. Had to go to A&E to get the flap glued together.

No that's definitely not what I am saying. I commute by bike by choice. I do DH by choice. And there are risks in that of which I am aware. You took a decision to ride a big feature bike park and more recently you also asked your child to wear a helmet, which sounds as though largely it did it's job - a cut is better than a rotational brain injury. I think that's all fine.

But with Rampage the whole idea is to constantly up the ante until a high proportion of the competitors are getting injured. And there's a lot of complex professional pressures to get into Rampage. All I said at the beginning was not 'look this proves that helmets work' or anything other than I have had enough of seeing very competent professionals being seriously injured.