Retro is Right
- Thread starter ratbane
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Just for interest on the retro/modern debate, I raced a short course XC event on the DOGS BOLX last night instead of the my normal full suspension XC race bike (Turner Flux).
While my average and maximum heart rate were about the same for the event (178 & 190bpm), I was about 10 - 15 seconds a lap slower than normal which doesn't sound that bad until you consider than a lap is sub 3 minutes and the event is only 20 - 25 minutes in total.
So why was in slower you may ask??
Well I'd put it down to the following factors:
Brakes: While the course is fairly flowing, Suntours finest from 1993 just don't allow you to brake as late XTR discs and braking sooner makes you slower.
Grip: Not just talking tyres (I don't think they made much difference last night), but more inportantly compared to the rigid DOGS, the full suspension keeps the tyres in contact with the ground so much better under braking and cornering, that I retain more speed in the corners. The course last night as a few rutted and rippled berms and the rigid bike skips around all over the place.
Anyway, it was great fun shashing it up the short climbs and blocking other riders in the bumpy/twisty bits, even if it wasn't the fastest option. My back is saying that it can feel the 20 minutes of hard racing and it may prefer something different at the next one though
While my average and maximum heart rate were about the same for the event (178 & 190bpm), I was about 10 - 15 seconds a lap slower than normal which doesn't sound that bad until you consider than a lap is sub 3 minutes and the event is only 20 - 25 minutes in total.
So why was in slower you may ask??
Well I'd put it down to the following factors:
Brakes: While the course is fairly flowing, Suntours finest from 1993 just don't allow you to brake as late XTR discs and braking sooner makes you slower.
Grip: Not just talking tyres (I don't think they made much difference last night), but more inportantly compared to the rigid DOGS, the full suspension keeps the tyres in contact with the ground so much better under braking and cornering, that I retain more speed in the corners. The course last night as a few rutted and rippled berms and the rigid bike skips around all over the place.
Anyway, it was great fun shashing it up the short climbs and blocking other riders in the bumpy/twisty bits, even if it wasn't the fastest option. My back is saying that it can feel the 20 minutes of hard racing and it may prefer something different at the next one though
Birdman
Retro Guru
Good points there Andrewl. I've raced laps of enduro race courses on both my Orange P7 with 60mm travel and cantis and on my SC superlight with disks and differences are marked.
On the FS you can hit corners harder and brake later due to the sharper response of the brakes, and the knowledge that the bike will be more settled through the turn, and also recover on the downhills as the bike is less nervy.
On the Orange I'm faster uphills and fireroad sprints when I'm out of the saddle as I can mash the pedals more and get a bigger gear turning (note the FS does not have platform damping so doesn’t like a rowdy pedal action).
Over a lap, fatigue isn’t an issue, but for longer races / rides I'll normally chose the FS for comfort and the bigger margin of error available for line choice if I'm getting knackered.
Each bike has its strengths, you just have to try to ride to them. I see too many FS riders taking the same lines as hardtails on trails, smooth isn’t always fastest when you have suspension!
On the FS you can hit corners harder and brake later due to the sharper response of the brakes, and the knowledge that the bike will be more settled through the turn, and also recover on the downhills as the bike is less nervy.
On the Orange I'm faster uphills and fireroad sprints when I'm out of the saddle as I can mash the pedals more and get a bigger gear turning (note the FS does not have platform damping so doesn’t like a rowdy pedal action).
Over a lap, fatigue isn’t an issue, but for longer races / rides I'll normally chose the FS for comfort and the bigger margin of error available for line choice if I'm getting knackered.
Each bike has its strengths, you just have to try to ride to them. I see too many FS riders taking the same lines as hardtails on trails, smooth isn’t always fastest when you have suspension!
Not ridden FS ever, but I do like the way my '08 Kula rides and during the summer I spent a fair amount of time on it 100mm of front travel is nice too.
Going to be interesting riding the CB again after a year of not riding it and using the Kona and Muddyfox, that said I am looking forward to it.
Carl.
Going to be interesting riding the CB again after a year of not riding it and using the Kona and Muddyfox, that said I am looking forward to it.
Carl.
..
Next test imminent.
Right. Picked this beastie up yesterday.
Had a swift blast last night, and will be undertaking the Explosif comparison soon. Will be swapping out the SLX chainset for XT.
I reckon this one will do it easy.
Feels much more responsive than the Orange 5 Pro, nippy and nicely balanced. Lighter too.
Was able to get an 09 model at £1k less than an O5 Pro.
Next test imminent.
Right. Picked this beastie up yesterday.
Had a swift blast last night, and will be undertaking the Explosif comparison soon. Will be swapping out the SLX chainset for XT.
I reckon this one will do it easy.
Feels much more responsive than the Orange 5 Pro, nippy and nicely balanced. Lighter too.
Was able to get an 09 model at £1k less than an O5 Pro.
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BarneyRubble
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Re: ..
Slightly OT, but Ratbane, what size is your Kona? It's just that I noticed you said you were going to watch my thread about light suspension forks and now having seen this story believe you might be about to offer your Z2's up for sale? If this is the case, then let me know. I have bought some SID's, but Z2's are period correct.
ratbane":32nbuda5 said:drystonepaul":32nbuda5 said:Interesting comparison.
Isn't using GPS a little too *modern* though?
I would've thought it more appropriate to use a stopwatch and a map instead...
It's not MY GPS ok!!!
I didn't fancy pacing it out after.
Slightly OT, but Ratbane, what size is your Kona? It's just that I noticed you said you were going to watch my thread about light suspension forks and now having seen this story believe you might be about to offer your Z2's up for sale? If this is the case, then let me know.
I have bought some SID's, but Z2's are period correct.I think that there are two different things at play here: performance and fun.
Of course full suspension works better - that's why people use it and it helps win races. You can find circumstances where it is of marginal benefit though.
However, the question is which is more fun. A 1965 Mini Cooper I used to own was (by modern standards) desperately slow and uncomfortable. 250 miles was tiring and noisy. My 200hp Saab is way faster, outbrakes the Mini and is totally undemanding to drive.
Which is more fun though???
The retro bike may be slower, but if it is more rewarding and involving to ride, fine.
I don't think that you can easily balance the two. Enjoy the difference between performance and fun.
Of course full suspension works better - that's why people use it and it helps win races. You can find circumstances where it is of marginal benefit though.
However, the question is which is more fun. A 1965 Mini Cooper I used to own was (by modern standards) desperately slow and uncomfortable. 250 miles was tiring and noisy. My 200hp Saab is way faster, outbrakes the Mini and is totally undemanding to drive.
Which is more fun though???
The retro bike may be slower, but if it is more rewarding and involving to ride, fine.I don't think that you can easily balance the two. Enjoy the difference between performance and fun.
Re: ..
She's an 18". She's got the Z2s on at the moment, as my REBA Teams are being warranty repaired. The REBAS will be going back on when they are back (a week or two). I will be selling the Z2's then.
BarneyRubble":3i87iy43 said:ratbane":3i87iy43 said:drystonepaul":3i87iy43 said:Interesting comparison.
Isn't using GPS a little too *modern* though?
I would've thought it more appropriate to use a stopwatch and a map instead...
It's not MY GPS ok!!!
I didn't fancy pacing it out after.
Slightly OT, but Ratbane, what size is your Kona? It's just that I noticed you said you were going to watch my thread about light suspension forks and now having seen this story believe you might be about to offer your Z2's up for sale? If this is the case, then let me know.
She's an 18". She's got the Z2s on at the moment, as my REBA Teams are being warranty repaired. The REBAS will be going back on when they are back (a week or two). I will be selling the Z2's then.
BarneyRubble
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D'oh! Steerer will probably be too short.
I need 220mm.
ratbane":3vnxtm0o said:BarneyRubble":3vnxtm0o said:ratbane":3vnxtm0o said:drystonepaul":3vnxtm0o said:Interesting comparison.
Isn't using GPS a little too *modern* though?
I would've thought it more appropriate to use a stopwatch and a map instead...
It's not MY GPS ok!!!
I didn't fancy pacing it out after.
Slightly OT, but Ratbane, what size is your Kona? It's just that I noticed you said you were going to watch my thread about light suspension forks and now having seen this story believe you might be about to offer your Z2's up for sale? If this is the case, then let me know.
She's an 18". She's got the Z2s on at the moment, as my REBA Teams are being warranty repaired. The REBAS will be going back on when they are back (a week or two). I will be selling the Z2's then.
D'oh! Steerer will probably be too short.
I need 220mm.Re: ..
I'll check, but you're probably right, as I tend to cut for no spacers.
BarneyRubble":2ky53ah8 said:ratbane":2ky53ah8 said:BarneyRubble":2ky53ah8 said:ratbane":2ky53ah8 said:drystonepaul":2ky53ah8 said:Interesting comparison.
Isn't using GPS a little too *modern* though?
I would've thought it more appropriate to use a stopwatch and a map instead...
It's not MY GPS ok!!!
I didn't fancy pacing it out after.
Slightly OT, but Ratbane, what size is your Kona? It's just that I noticed you said you were going to watch my thread about light suspension forks and now having seen this story believe you might be about to offer your Z2's up for sale? If this is the case, then let me know.
She's an 18". She's got the Z2s on at the moment, as my REBA Teams are being warranty repaired. The REBAS will be going back on when they are back (a week or two). I will be selling the Z2's then.
D'oh! Steerer will probably be too short.
I'll check, but you're probably right, as I tend to cut for no spacers.
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