Question about Shimano compatible cassette sprocket and spacer thickness for a given speed

[ibbz]

A question I have
Do all cassettes of a speed have the same thickness and take the same thickness spacers ?
E.g. a 9 speed shimano cassette has same sized sprockets and spacers as any other 9 speed shimano compatible cassette from a different maker I.e. SRAM or Miche?
And 10 for 10 etc?

Reason I ask is that I’ve got this:
with no spacers
Supposed to be able to be 9 or 10 s.
Which depends on spacer size according to the seller but
This has 10 sprockets but I think it has 2x small sprockets which the lock ring attaches to. So I suspect 9.
It’s a TA Khoeps
I’ve looked on sheldon and it has this table: I assume the sprocket thickness and spacer thickness should be the same regardless of make ? As the total width needs to be the same ? Or will this be the same but spacers depending on the inner part of each sprocket which is thicker than the teeth

 

[ishaw]

My guess would be the spacer width would be determined by the thickness of the sprocket where the spacer butts against. Do all manufacturers make them the same down there? At the tooth end, the designated chain to fit would determine the width, but the rest of the sprocket could be any size, with the spacer making up the required difference.

People mix and match to make their own cassettes, but between brands and ranges within, not sure.

 

[Frankenorange]

I put this link up elsewhere to an old piece that i have used to build my own cassettes and use a mix of shifters and me hs

https://www.scribd.com/document/392...nce-Behind-the-Magic-Drivetrain-Compatibility
Cogs are usually flat but the TA cogs have a convex shape to them. What you need to look at is the "cog pitch", for the number of speeds you want, and then by placing the TA cogs together you can work out what spacer you need. Using them in a ten speed setup may only require a 1mm spacer. Something like that anyway.

Up to 10 speeds the cog spacing has been uniform across the cassettes though slightly different from one make to another. Sram and Shimano are uniform at 11 speeds, but I think Campag have variable spacing on their 11 cassette in the smaller cogs. I think i am right in saying that all of the big 3 have variable spacing on 12 speeds to fit more cogs in.

One thing i have learnt from building shimano cassettes, by mixing cogs and clusters from various groupsets, is now and again you have to throw in a slimmer spacer to aid shifting.
The reason for this is sometimes the progression in teeth alignment doesn't match, as intended, and the chain will hesitate for some revolutions before climbing up a cog. Down shift are always ok.
I had this recently when putting my dream 11 speed cassette together. The last four cogs are now 2 clusters , of 2 cogs each, which replaced a cluster of 3 cogs, and a large single. From the off the chain kept baulking before climbing onto the first of the ti cogs so i fitted a 2mm spacer and now it is perfect.
The small part of a mm that has actually moved the last four cogs closer to the start point of travel, at the 13t, has not led to goofy gear selection on those last four. It is such a small amount over 4 cogs.
Also; i found that depending on chainline and the teeth difference between cogs you can get ghost shifting/ticking noises, as cogs get closer together, and it can be worth trying a narrower chain i.e an 11 speed chain on a 10 cassette. You would be surprised how so little in the way of parts of a mm can make alot of difference, but also very little. It depends on what problem you have.

Another thing to play with is upper pulley wheel size,and float in the pulley wheels, when messing about with gear systems. Again; you would be surprised at the difference you can make. Another is the gap between the cogs and the upper pulley which may need to be messed about with when using non-standard stuff.

 

[ibbz]

I put this link up elsewhere to an old piece that i have used to build my own cassettes and use a mix of shifters and me hs

https://www.scribd.com/document/392...nce-Behind-the-Magic-Drivetrain-Compatibility
Cogs are usually flat but the TA cogs have a convex shape to them. What you need to look at is the "cog pitch", for the number of speeds you want, and then by placing the TA cogs together you can work out what spacer you need. Using them in a ten speed setup may only require a 1mm spacer. Something like that anyway.

Up to 10 speeds the cog spacing has been uniform across the cassettes though slightly different from one make to another. Sram and Shimano are uniform at 11 speeds, but I think Campag have variable spacing on their 11 cassette in the smaller cogs. I think i am right in saying that all of the big 3 have variable spacing on 12 speeds to fit more cogs in.

One thing i have learnt from building shimano cassettes, by mixing cogs and clusters from various groupsets, is now and again you have to throw in a slimmer spacer to aid shifting.
The reason for this is sometimes the progression in teeth alignment doesn't match, as intended, and the chain will hesitate for some revolutions before climbing up a cog. Down shift are always ok.
I had this recently when putting my dream 11 speed cassette together. The last four cogs are now 2 clusters , of 2 cogs each, which replaced a cluster of 3 cogs, and a large single. From the off the chain kept baulking before climbing onto the first of the ti cogs so i fitted a 2mm spacer and now it is perfect.
The small part of a mm that has actually moved the last four cogs closer to the start point of travel, at the 13t, has not led to goofy gear selection on those last four. It is such a small amount over 4 cogs.
Also; i found that depending on chainline and the teeth difference between cogs you can get ghost shifting/ticking noises, as cogs get closer together, and it can be worth trying a narrower chain i.e an 11 speed chain on a 10 cassette. You would be surprised how so little in the way of parts of a mm can make alot of difference, but also very little. It depends on what problem you have.

Another thing to play with is upper pulley wheel size,and float in the pulley wheels, when messing about with gear systems. Again; you would be surprised at the difference you can make. Another is the gap between the cogs and the upper pulley which may need to be messed about with when using non-standard stuff.

Thank you for this - I’m going to have a read and look at the document properly when I’m at work - cog pitch being the centre of one cog to the next and if I want to run 9 speed with the above I’ll be looking at shimano 9 and I guess it’ll be this table?


I had a look online and found a German site selling the spacers for the cassette - 8 9 and 10 and it’s a handy reference

I think I’ll be running 9 speed - the TA cassettes seem to be thicker at the centre and I think as you said it’s because of a convex shape - I’ll look closely

 

[Frankenorange]

Looks like this is going in the right direction. Good find with that german shop!

Questions about compatability of parts within gear systems has come up alot in the last year. It is understandable with options of more speeds becoming easier and cheaper to obtain. The Arts Cyclery page i linked above is a very important piece of info and it was well researched and all the numbers add up.

It is valuable to have solid data and examples of mullet systems that work. The internet is full of nonsense about what wont work and combined with manufacturers swearing the earth will stop sspinning , and all the water will fall off, if you try and use a 28t max rear mech on a 30t. Front mechs get the same treatment, but the moon did not get sucked into the sun when i combined 53t and 34t chainrings. Different makes, too, which some people will freak out about.
You just have to watch out for things like aggressive ramp pins, in big chainrings, and going small to small with a small chainring that is alot smaller than the big. This WILL not end at all well as the chain gets picked up by the pin and drawn up between the chainstay and big ring!

 

[ibbz]

Looks like this is going in the right direction. Good find with that german shop!

Questions about compatability of parts within gear systems has come up alot in the last year. It is understandable with options of more speeds becoming easier and cheaper to obtain. The Arts Cyclery page i linked above is a very important piece of info and it was well researched and all the numbers add up.

It is valuable to have solid data and examples of mullet systems that work. The internet is full of nonsense about what wont work and combined with manufacturers swearing the earth will stop sspinning , and all the water will fall off, if you try and use a 28t max rear mech on a 30t. Front mechs get the same treatment, but the moon did not get sucked into the sun when i combined 53t and 34t chainrings. Different makes, too, which some people will freak out about.
You just have to watch out for things like aggressive ramp pins, in big chainrings, and going small to small with a small chainring that is alot smaller than the big. This WILL not end at all well as the chain gets picked up by the pin and drawn up between the chainstay and big ring!

Thanks again!
I also found a NOS cassette of the same type on eBay and the seller kindly told me the measurements of the spacers !
0.5mm for black and 1mm for white - which matches the 0.95mm and 0.5mm on the German site!

 

[Imlach]

I put this link up elsewhere to an old piece that i have used to build my own cassettes and use a mix of shifters and me hs

https://www.scribd.com/document/392...nce-Behind-the-Magic-Drivetrain-Compatibility
Cogs are usually flat but the TA cogs have a convex shape to them. What you need to look at is the "cog pitch", for the number of speeds you want, and then by placing the TA cogs together you can work out what spacer you need. Using them in a ten speed setup may only require a 1mm spacer. Something like that anyway.

Up to 10 speeds the cog spacing has been uniform across the cassettes though slightly different from one make to another. Sram and Shimano are uniform at 11 speeds, but I think Campag have variable spacing on their 11 cassette in the smaller cogs. I think i am right in saying that all of the big 3 have variable spacing on 12 speeds to fit more cogs in.

One thing i have learnt from building shimano cassettes, by mixing cogs and clusters from various groupsets, is now and again you have to throw in a slimmer spacer to aid shifting.
The reason for this is sometimes the progression in teeth alignment doesn't match, as intended, and the chain will hesitate for some revolutions before climbing up a cog. Down shift are always ok.
I had this recently when putting my dream 11 speed cassette together. The last four cogs are now 2 clusters , of 2 cogs each, which replaced a cluster of 3 cogs, and a large single. From the off the chain kept baulking before climbing onto the first of the ti cogs so i fitted a 2mm spacer and now it is perfect.
The small part of a mm that has actually moved the last four cogs closer to the start point of travel, at the 13t, has not led to goofy gear selection on those last four. It is such a small amount over 4 cogs.
Also; i found that depending on chainline and the teeth difference between cogs you can get ghost shifting/ticking noises, as cogs get closer together, and it can be worth trying a narrower chain i.e an 11 speed chain on a 10 cassette. You would be surprised how so little in the way of parts of a mm can make alot of difference, but also very little. It depends on what problem you have.

Another thing to play with is upper pulley wheel size,and float in the pulley wheels, when messing about with gear systems. Again; you would be surprised at the difference you can make. Another is the gap between the cogs and the upper pulley which may need to be messed about with when using non-standard stuff.

Great info, bookmarked

 

[ibbz]

If anyone has any spare 1mm or 0.95mm spacers pls let me know !!

 

[Frankenorange]

I had a look but i don't have a spare. I have used this ebay shop for spacers. Nice fast post, too.

eBay item number:284828151572

They are a friendly bunch and it is worth messaging them first and see if you can get a deal on several. Thinking about it.....search their shop as they might have a listing for multiple items on each size.

 

[Frankenorange]

Great info, bookmarked

Seems to be the only place this exists now. Turn it into a pdf or something and save to a drive. At least the tables. Ideally; we could do with a full copy on the site.
The original has gone( i think Arts Cyclery might have changed hands?) and all web links point to the original. Not sure how it ended up on Scribd, or what the latter is about tbh.