Newbie needs help please - what is it?

[Gahany]

Hi, I bought this to use as parts to update my 60s Flandria that is falling apart but after using it for a while it's far to good to mess with! I have tried doing research and spent many hours staring at Google images, to no avail but hope someone out there will put me right!

Clues:
# 8971 (consistent with Chas Roberts numbering but I can't find anything like it?)
Cast Reynolds BB with brazed on cable guides
735 on top of Seat Tube
Campanolo dropouts (stamped)
sweet rear brake cable routing in top tube (like Pinarello?)
Dainty diamonds on brake bridge and bottle lugs

Grateful for any advice or suggestions

Thanks

 

[lewisfoto]

That is a tough nut to crack, Most likely '90s due to the internally routed brake cable, but not much in the way of distinguishing markings. What is the treading?

 

[Gahany]

Re:

Not sure I haven't dismantled it yet, maybe that's the next step and probably pull the forks out too

 

[lewisfoto]

There may be numbers on that external BB that will tell you the threading 36 x 24t is Italian, 37 x 24 is English and 35 x 1 is French. Also the bottom bracket shell will be 68mm for English and French whereas the Italian is 70mm (for classic era bikes anyway)

 

[Gahany]

Thanks for that, I took a few more bits off:

The BB is 68mm wide and the Hollowtech I removed is a 37 x24, so English
Removed the forks, they also have Campo dropouts the fork Steerer tube is 1" Diameter with no other markings?

I've attached a couple of extra photos of the diamond detail.

Does that help?

 

[ScillySuffolk]

Can't help with an ID, but a couple of points which I hope will help:
- numbers on lugs are usually angles, so "735" is actually "73.5" and is the angle of the seat tube.
- dropouts are a good indicator of quality, no-one puts, eg, Campag dropouts on a piece of pig iron.
- the seatpost diameter is another good indicator: 27.2/27.0mm for the finest steel tubing, 26.8mm for "good not great"; 26.4mm for plain gauge tube.
- I also check the brake bridge: tube with a hole is at the bottom of the heap; then a tube with a reinforced hole (such as yours); best of all are the elegant bridges that aren't tubes.
- internal cable routing can be a red-herring: when top quality builders introduced this feature, so lesser builders followed suit. Cheap is just two holes in the top tube; but a good builder will braze a tube twixt the two, so you don't go mad trying to thread a cable. The very best use a tube that acts like a cable stop, so you only thread the inner.
- the way seat stays finish at the seat tube and how they're capped is also somewhere that builders like to show off: wrap around, scalloped, fast back, engraved; the variations are seemingly endless.
- similarly with lugs, cutouts and braze-ons: your diamonds are nice but nothing special.

By no means an exhaustive list and there are plenty of exceptions to the rules.

Overall it looks like a perfectly decent, but unexceptional frame.

 

[Gahany]

Thanks very much for the guidance, very useful, it was the dropouts that intrigued me in the first instance. I agree it looks 'plain Jane' but having had a little more time to dismantle and noting your points above I can add the following:
- Seatpost is 27.2mm
- Internal cable routing is a tube that acts like a cable stop, so you only thread the inner.

 

[ScillySuffolk]

Most welcome.

If it takes a 27.2mm post, then you've got some nice steel there. As you've got it apart, check the insides of the tubes for rifling.

Had a closer look at the top tube: the internal routing stands proud? In my experience, this is an earlier method, later on the stops/guides were flush with the top tube. This was before the copy-cats jumped on the band wagon, so is a "positive" indicator of quality.

What does the rear OLD measure? 130mm became the standard with the introduction of eight speed in the early nineties; 126mm prior to that.

 

[Gahany]

There doesn't appear to be any consistent rifling but there are numerous rotary lines consistent with a brush/flapper wheel to clean the seat tube, there's nothing of note in the head tube. The OLD is 130mm (it's currently got a 10 speed set up) but it does look like the LH Stays are slightly out ie not straight to the BB nor Seat post, they appear to have been spread slightly apart at the chainstay bridge to accept the larger hub, its very minimal but they're definitely not straight. It's been done well as there are no kinks/cracks (that I can see)

A colleague suggested a 'Richard Moon' as used similar diamonds bridges and tube sleeves but I can't find anything like ?

I guess the next step is to take the nasty hammerite paint off!

Thanks again!