Mercedes 190E..any good? Yes! Pic of the one I bought page 5

[legrandefromage]

Do you mean it may choose a different gear (say 2nd) dependant on throttle position?

It'd have to be quick, then ;-)

Some modern autos put the car in neutral when waiting / stationary for a certain number of seconds (it was based on economy / ecological reasons, apparently) - some makes had to produce software updates for the gearbox ECUs to stop them doing this, as this was radically shortening the life of the gearbox (1st gear clutch was taking a hammering) - more ammunition for leaving an auto in drive, unless you're waiting for quite some minutes.

They had to react fairly quick, though, to throttle input, which caused some hesitation when trying to move off, when the 'box would do this.

It's an odd concept, though, for an auto to choose a higher gear to move off in, for economy reasons. Some do it with things like winter mode, to try and reduce wheelspin in snowy / icey conditions. It tends to be more economical to use more revs than most seem to think for economy reasons, when moving off, because it's the engines most efficient part of it's rev range that's usually most economical for driving (not necessarily peak output).

Some modern autos use ATF and coolant temperature to determine certain behaviour - more likely when to engage lock-up - I know mine waits for certain temperatures before using lock-up through the rev range. The rationale for that, really, is getting the ATF to a good working temperature ASAP, then maintaining that (ideally not to low, not to high).

That's why I'm puzzled about your comment about the accelerator pedal?

Its in the mercedes user manual. The Merc 4spd box will pull away in 1st or 2nd depending on where the accelerator pedal is, and if it is in 'standard' or 'economy' - economy will always pull in 2nd. W126 was the first car to have traction control which shows how far ahead the w126 was back somewhere in 1981.

try owning the car before commenting - I dont care what your car does, its not a 20 year old Mercedes and Barryhurgandy's Merc shares the same box as the S class and my mates LPG 190.

 

[Harryburgundy]

Ah yes Mr LGF, little button next to the gear lever...S or E. More buttons to play with
Think I'll have someone look at the box as it is a wee notchy, not quite the slush puppy I was expecting.

Just had a look at the manual

Mode selector S
The car moves off in 2nd gear with light throttle, and in 1st with full throttle.
Mode selector E
The car moves off in 2nd gear whatever throttle action.
The transmission shifts up and down gears at lower driving speeds with full throttle etc etc
The E mode provides an even more relaxed style of driving with the accent on comfort and fuel economy.

 

[crud]

Ah yes Mr LGF, little button next to the gear lever...S or E. More buttons to play with
Think I'll have someone look at the box as it is a wee notchy, not quite the slush puppy I was expecting.

is it worth it? might well cost you more than the car did? :cry:

I would just try a diy fluid change. spending money on it is not really in the spirit of buying these sorts of cars unless you want to sink money into it to make it perfect, in which case it will never be worth what you have spent on it.

just my thoughts of course

 

[detomaso]

Ah yes Mr LGF, little button next to the gear lever...S or E. More buttons to play with
Think I'll have someone look at the box as it is a wee notchy, not quite the slush puppy I was expecting.

As mentioned, this is often due to the rubber donuts at each end of the propshaft (one for gearbox, one for diff). They are connected at each end by 6 bolts that over time, due to the rotational movement, transform the once round holes in the rubber to something more like slots, so there can be up to an 1" of movement which causes a lurch and clonk between gearchanges (up and down the box).

Edited to add it's a £250-280 job at a specialist, parts are £150 from Mercedes (recommended) and come with all the bits to fit. It's one of the biggest improvements you can make to the car, that and replacing the injectors as they are renowned for clogging up.

Every car costs a bit to run, it's just where you draw the line - most people would have a fit i they knew how much some people on the forum spend on bikes.

 

[legrandefromage]

I was once told by a Mercedes service chap, hand to forhead, plumber assessing a job style:

''w126 s class? gearbox will need rebuilding at 300,000...''

 

[Neil]

my e320 always pulls of in second, in either s or e modes. the only time it uses first is if you pin the throttle past the kickdown point.

By that do you mean that when drive is selected, it waits to see throttle input before selecting a cog - or that it normally selects 2nd, but if the throttle is heavily pressed, it quickly changes from 2nd to 1st?

How does that manifest when driving, it sounds like under heavy throttle, from a standstill, it could have to shift quite severly (similar to flooring the throttle, then dumping it in drive - v bad for 1st gear clutch).

 

[Neil]

Its in the mercedes user manual. The Merc 4spd box will pull away in 1st or 2nd depending on where the accelerator pedal is, and if it is in 'standard' or 'economy' - economy will always pull in 2nd.

I'm curious as to how that manifests when moving off, presumably when drive is selected, 2nd gear is engaged, if the mode is "standard" and the throttle heavy, are you saying (under high revs) that 2nd is dumped, and 1st engaged rather swiftly? Or does it wait until throttle is used before selecting / engaging a gear?

The former sounds like a shift would be done (from an initial 2nd to 1st), under high stress, whilst still stationary, potentially (albeit slightly) delaying moving off (presumably - given throttle input - when you want the quickest take off) and having the other downsides that follow, the latter sounds as bad as the high rev in neutral, dumping into drive (still sounding like a delay at the point of moving off, where throttle position would suggest you want the quickest take off).

What I'm trying to say, there, is that if throttle position (and a wide open position) is the cue to select or change to 1st before moving off, it's not a great time to do it - as the torque convertor is already being driven hard, so the engaging of the gear has to be done under stress. That sounds the equivalent of revving hard, and dumping into drive, hard on the 1st gear clutch.

The opposite - selecting drive / 1st gear, then revving hard and spinning up the torque convertor before releasing brakes isn't hard in the same way on the transmission - since the gear is already selected before engine revs are high - so the brief period of using the gear's clutch to engage the gear isn't done under heavy stress - and it just really takes it out of the ATF in the torque convertor.

try owning the car before commenting - I dont care what your car does, its not a 20 year old Mercedes and Barryhurgandy's Merc shares the same box as the S class and my mates LPG 190.

Was that really necessary? I was just trying to understand how it operates, that's all, and the reasons and behaviour.

I'm sure owning a Mercedes-Benz makes you a member of a very exclusive club, but transmissions, be they for esteemed, presitgious cars like Mercedes, or those for say a lowly Kia, all operate by the same general principles, and ruled by the same laws of physics.

I can assure you, I know a reasonable amount about (relatively) modern, ECU controlled automatic transmissions (car make independent).

I can see how a transmission, (instructed by software to) intelligently selecting a ratio for moving off, depending on input, could make sense, but not really in the type of transmission we're talking about - planetary gear "traditional" automatic transmission (for reasons as above). Implemented in something like a dual-clutch transmission and I can see how it could be implemented with less cons than pros, but then with a dual clutch transmission, I'm guessing that the main reason to do this isn't relevant. Do MB still do this sort of thing with their current transmissions? And did it affect the servicability of those that had it - 'cos the throttle position thing sounds like it could certainly compromise servicability. If they no longer do it, I wonder why?

If the 190 in question has a harsh engagement of 2nd, it could be contributed by driving style (assuming 2nd is predominantly the gear used from standstill) as some drivers habitually shift autos into neutral, like you would a manual when waiting whilst driving, resulting in considerably more instances of engaging the said gear, and as a consequence, notable, additional wear on that gear's clutch. So long as ATF cooling isn't a problem (and shouldn't be for the generation of auto we're talking about, onwards), a bit of time stirring ATF at idle speed is much more preferable that shifting in to neutral (or even worse, park) whenever waiting whilst driving (assuming that wait isn't for a good number of minutes - ie more than a sequence of lights, or waiting at a junction).

 

[Neil]

Ah yes Mr LGF, little button next to the gear lever...S or E. More buttons to play with
Think I'll have someone look at the box as it is a wee notchy, not quite the slush puppy I was expecting.

As mentioned, this is often due to the rubber donuts at each end of the propshaft (one for gearbox, one for diff). They are connected at each end by 6 bolts that over time, due to the rotational movement, transform the once round holes in the rubber to something more like slots, so there can be up to an 1" of movement which causes a lurch and clonk between gearchanges (up and down the box).

That can be a regular cause of gearbox lurches and clunks, various bushes (either gearbox or engine) causing movement as they wear.

Normally something that's fairly easily observed, if you've got somebody to assist you, and can secure the car, when selecting gears.

 

[Neil]

that and replacing the injectors as they are renowned for clogging up.

Meant to say, there's people who can service injectors, probably for a fraction of the cost of new ones.

A guy on one of the Volvo forums does it, with a special rig, tends to cost around £50 for a set (of 5 for the Volvos in question) that's for a full reconditioning, showing flow rates and volume before and after. I suspect there's nothing that unusual about MB injectors (they tend to be made by Bosch or Siemens, or somebody like that) that couldn't be generically serviced.

 

[Easy_Rider]

my e320 always pulls of in second, in either s or e modes. the only time it uses first is if you pin the throttle past the kickdown point.

By that do you mean that when drive is selected, it waits to see throttle input before selecting a cog - or that it normally selects 2nd, but if the throttle is heavily pressed, it quickly changes from 2nd to 1st?

How does that manifest when driving, it sounds like under heavy throttle, from a standstill, it could have to shift quite severly (similar to flooring the throttle, then dumping it in drive - v bad for 1st gear clutch).

Ive driven the same car. Its in 2nd when drive is selected and then shifts to first at kick down. The engine is powerfull enough to pull off in 2nd quite rapidly anyway (3.2litre 6 cylinder), and you don't even notice your in second to be honest. When it kicks down to first you do get a punch alright, but its not something done very often so the clutch copes fine. These are MB drivers your talking about here, not your usual riff raff