konatime":397y2wvi said:
Manny Steward said Tyson could'nt box....thats not bert Trumpton from Darlington Avenue Hartlepool....Manny Steward had the audacity to laff in the face of an interviewer when Holy v Tyson was first murmoured....laff outloud.
Many commentators and experts say many things for many reasons - often far from being some objective appraisal.
At that point in Tyson's career, calling him a brawler was probably not that far wide of the mark. That said, though, if Tyson was so ineffectual as a boxer, as per Steward's rhetoric, Holyfield should have easily taken him in round 1. Yet he didn't.
It's complete extrapolation from that to totally decry Tyson's ability in his prime. In his early years, he was very skillful, especially given his weight class, and far more capable than merely a brawler.
That such skills weren't sustained to that level throughout his career, does not mean he didn't have them in the first place.
Manny Steward has probably said more about Tyson than that one soundbite, but I've always maintained, Tyson's favoured approach or style, didn't lend itself well to the ravages of time, or not adhering to the same amount of fitness and conditioning in his prime years. That he didn't, or found it difficult to evolve from that, isn't purely an indictment of him. And even so - even with the onset of time, erosion of fitness and ability, he was still a dangerous and capable boxer in his later career - he was just a shadow of his prime self.
Tyson's natural ability, and trained peak were devastating and unprecedented for a heavyweight. His speed, power, head movement and defensive style, for a young boxer, in peak condition, were an awesome combination. That this wasn't ideally suited as he aged, plus his psychological issues, and dilution in training discipline and focus, plus, I'd say, some poor management by his corner - in terms of approach and management, made something of a likelihood become a certainty.
konatime":397y2wvi said:
No one on the planet believed Holyyfield would stand Tyson up the way he did
Holyfield certainly stepped up.
But for you and everybody else, so smug about Tyson losing to Holyfield and Lewis, had he met both fighters when all were at their prime (say Tyson's form in the late 80s) and whenever it was for Holyfield and Lewis (maybe a bit vague, eh...), I doubt it would have been anything like as clear cut or easy.
konatime":397y2wvi said:
perhaps not being professional might have been embarassing to how Tyson was swallowed hook line and sinker by the newly emerging Sky market.....but lets have it right fella the **** could'nt box to save his life.
What complete and utter rubbish.
Perhaps you feel empowered to make such an argument by riding on the coat-tails of greater men - and in doing so, not come across as a parrotting moron - but let me reassure over that, you're wrong.
It's probably one of the most desperate and foolish appeals to authority I've ever read, and I'm calling you out over it - to use your own words, it's "Billy Bollox". Even now, were you to climb into the squared circle with Tyson, he'd most definitely be able to give you a boxing lesson, and be able to put you on your ass in a New York minute. Afterwards, whilst being stretchered away, I suspect the last thing going through your mind would be "Tyson couldn't box to save his life". Oh and Manny wouldn't be there with your back - he wouldn't be taking your calls that day.
Post prison, he was no longer the man or boxer he was in his prime. And true enough, his abilities didn't age well. But in his prime, he was most certainly an utterly devastating boxer - and to maintain otherwise, is truly asinine.
There's an entire gulf between somebody opining that they don't believe a particular boxer's abilities were as good as other would maintain, to utter hyperbole like "couldn't box to save his life" - that's probably one of the most inept commentaries on a boxer like Tyson I've ever heard.
If you're foolish to base it merely on Steward's comments, you need to take a moment and think more about context, and ask yourself this - during the period that Steward made such comments, and apparently held such belief - do you believe Steward would have refused to train Tyson? Do you think Cus D'Amato would have been so heavily involved with a boxer that "couldn't box to save his life"?
Truth be told, I'm not sure the value of continuing to debate this further with somebody who's argument (by proxy) is quite so daft, but in for a penny...
konatime":397y2wvi said:
Even the gentleman Lewis laffed outloud when Tysons boxing skills were mentioned in relation to LL's own....Lewis replied 'he's a brawler, i'm a puguilist specialist'....which kind of rang true when they met cause Lewis never got hit if i recall correctly and not one Tyson rater i ever knew dreamt that would happen.
Lewis? Such claimed potential, but the only emotion he raised in me was "Meh". There's a part of me that thinks - unfulfilled potential - but then being realistic, I think he actually realised his potential and reached his natural level. Not that there was anything wrong in that, mind. He was a decent enough boxer, as was Holyfield.
If Lewis was so superior, and Tyson so unskilled as you and fighters / trainers, involved in pre-fight rhetoric claim, why weren't these easily dominated 1st round KOs / TKOs for such worthy opponents, over such a claimed unskilled boxer?
As to your rubbishing of Tyson's boxing ability, two things:-
1. Watch:
this,
this and
this
2. I accept, the years weren't kind, and from slightly before prison, to afterwards, his abilities were eroded by time, and focus shift to, largely, a heavy-hitting slugger.
konatime":397y2wvi said:
All boxers are managed true enough, Tyson splattered the drug riddled Tony Tubbs to great fanfare and paid millions of $'s (factamundo) to avoid the two Olympic heavyweight finalists of a very similar age to himself (well stone the crows).
Listen - dragons be there, on the slight about what fighters ducked other fighters.
konatime":397y2wvi said:
Once the bum a month crew were finished with Tyson did'nt look so good. He could'nt switch styles, Clay done Liston one way and Foreman another....different class.
Clay / Ali was an entirely different boxer - who certainly was more cerebral.
That said, all this talk about switching styles is hopelessly oversimplified and trite. The issue wasn't so much in the
need to change styles, it was a fundamental shift in approach that clearly didn't suit him, yet was largely imposed. And all, probably, because Tyson didn't appear to have the mental and psychological fortitude to assert himself in the same way that Clay / Ali did.
But style in both opponents and approach has relevance. Where Clay / Ali is concerned, Liston was a hugely pivotal moment. Liston was a menacing and hugely feared heavyweight champ - rightly so, he was very dangerous and powerful.
Clay beat him by being clever, and by leveraging his athletic ability, and not being forced into fighting Liston how Liston wanted him to fight him. Clay beat Liston very easily in their first fight, and their second was hardly worth the price of admission (and yes, I know of the scurrilious rumours). All the same, Frazier was never thought of as being as dangerous as Liston, but was more dangerous to Clay / Ali in terms of how he fought. Would Frazier vs Liston have been as clear cut, though?
konatime":397y2wvi said:
I see you picked Marciano in the all time greats....he had five title fights and retired, the youngest (youngest) of the 5 to be allowed to challenge the new white heavy (America had just had 11yrs of Louis) was 36yr old, the oldest reportedly was 54yr old.....with form like that i'd not cll him a great but] suprisingly he had that clobbering style that appeals to the masses so thats that.
So because you'd not class him as a great, others are wrong to do so?
Marciano is considered by many to be a great, not because of how he looks on paper - but because of how he
fought. And the boxing fraternity are happy with him in the top 10 of the best.
Some boxers are considered great
because of their record - because of their peers, who they fought, and who they beat eg: Clay / Ali. Some boxers are considered great
despite their record - eg Tyson. And some boxers are considered great because it's largely axiomatic that they were: eg Robinson, who was considered so by many boxers, never mind spectators.
As I said, though, I dunno why I'm bothering being so defensive about Tyson - it's not like he's any true or sole fave of mine. That said, only a complete and utter moron would argue that Tyson was devout of serious boxing skill in his prime.
konatime":397y2wvi said:
"And practically every champion was "made".
If you think thats true then you want words with Marvin Hagler...ask him about the route put in front of him in order that Sugar boy got title shots quicker than him....he seems to imply your statement is billy bolloxVille.
Complete non-sequitur.
That's just conflating one camp's choices of opponents with a rival's choices.
There's nothing new under the sun with boxers (or more likely their management) being very selective about their opponents. For various / varying reasons - money, fear / risk, opportuinity, mind-games. I'd go as far to say that many - perhaps most - boxers who've made it to WC have done so.
It's occurred for decades, so hardly applicable just to Tyson.
Cooper said he never wanted to get in the ring with Liston, yet was happy to fight Ali if / when Ali beat Liston. There's all sorts of reasons why some boxers are avoided and others gladly taken on. It's nothing new - and truly, nothing new under the sun, for Tyson, or countless other boxers.
Patterson was completely dominated by Liston - 1st round knockouts, both fights. Patterson took Ali to 12 rounds (in their first fight - so around Liston's era). Yet Ali made Liston look like a chump. And Patterson KOd Cooper.
. The commentator seems to think tysons speeds gone in his legs, though the speeds there when he gets a giddy on, it's just not there when he decides to go for it from distance and Lewis tells him to forget it with a little head move counter gimme trick...how to **** a match-power about. Had he moved into 2nd gear in that second round (Golata style) he would have taken Tyson out there and then. 
