Klitschko vs Haye

[konatime]

tyson in his prime would eat these two for lunch...

And Ali in his prime would have given Tyson a big headache - and may have been clever enough to beat him.

As much as I appreciate Tyson in his prime being a truly devastating, almost unprecendented for a heavyweight - the scalps he took in his prime don't really reveal how good he was, then. All the same, Ali / Clay overcame much harder opponents that nobody really thought he would have done, in his day.

And Tyson's prime didn't truly last that long, Douglas took him when he shouldn't have been able, and that was about the start of the slide. He was never the same after prison.

He was the same person, exactly the same...a bully, a match-power bully. He got beat whenever he got hit back. Clay told/taught Wogan (of all people) pre the Douglas fight how exactly to defeat The baddest man on the planet and that he would be there for the taking in round 10 (he was always on the money the boy). Tyson Ducked Mercer, Foreman , Holyfield and Lewis in that first phase of his career, Manny Steward laughed in the face of the interviewr when asked how he seen Holy v Tyson. Teddy Atlas tells the story of 'Mr. i'm gonna rape your mother and kill your kids' comin it (Catskills) with Evander way back when Evander was a light heavy, he stood up to Tyson who simply laughed and moved off scratch (something he was later to repeat).

Douglas could box a plenty, his problem he liked to get fat and simply wanted the cheque, 2 month before the Tyson meet was signed he lost his sister in a bizarre farmyard rifle cleaning accident (she managed to shoot herself), his mother died and his Mrs declared she had cancer and wanted out of him. He booked a ringside seat for his 11yr old boy to watch his pa win the heavy weight title of the world..Tyson weighed plum on his match weight and the world and the Sky punters paid theier $'s to see the destruction, no merchant on the planet murmoured/predicted beforehand what was about to happen and Douglas shown the world how a match-power fighter is devoid of power when a little fake Kirkland Laing foot slap is laid on the canvas...that simple. Douglas opened that fight 45 to 1, when he hit 16st 8lb and folk remembered that he could really 'uckin box a bit ..Trump slapped half a $mill on him and single-handedly brought the world wide odds down to 22's. Dan Duva (Lou's son) had a $50k punt and next news the odds where 16's, fight night he was 8's.

Tyson did gob off to big George at one stage but seemed very reluctant to bite his ankle after Foreman told him to shut the **** an go and make a sandwhich. He ran out of the back of the Mandalay after Mercer fractured one of his aides swede off the nearest wall and told him to tell the rapist 'any way he wants it'.

Truth is if Tyson was any other weight bar heavy..his shortcomings would be loud a nd clear.

 

[konatime]

ali was floored and his legs were gone...cooper would have

clay was up at 4 sec's and walked back to his corner like fonzy.

 

[Neil]

ali was floored and his legs were gone...cooper would have taken him...

Caveat: It's ages since I've seen the fight, but one lucky punch, does not make a victory.

Clay / Ali took on much better, and much harder hitters, and prevailed.

Realistically, beyond the big heavy, lucky haymaker - like the Bruno scenario, Cooper - whilst a decent enough boxer, wasn't a Clay / Ali beater - just really got his "almost" moment.

tyson had a major weakness...he got lazy...

That's kinda grossly oversimplifying.

Among other troubles, Tyson's major style, didn't lend itself well to how he aged.

bruno just lacked the killer in him to do the damage...that and a really bad jaw when he got walloped..i only ever saw bruno get mad once in his career,,,that was a tyson slap...he nearly floored him...his legs wobbled but he didnt go down..

Bruno wasn't really in Tyson's league - in a similar way to Cooper and Ali.

Bruno lacked more than just a killer instinct to beat Tyson - he needed a lot more than that (beyond pure dumb luck) to defeat him.

In their second fight, Bruno looked completely terrified - looked like he didn't want to get anywhere near him - which was completely at odds with his pre-fight talk, especially playing up his one lucky punch from their first fight.

one of my fav boxing pics is of ali standing over liston...awsome stuff

Clay vs Liston - their first fight, was a very pivotal moment for Clay in the boxing world. Up to that point, nobody took him seriously - EVERYBODY thought he'd get totally annihilated. When he beat Liston easily, there was still a large disquiet in the boxing world that Clay didn't fight Liston like a proper heavyweight should.

Liston was a serious scalp, though, for Ali - especially in the manner Clay beat him.

 

[gibbleking]

That's kinda grossly oversimplifying.


i have to...we could be here all night poring over the small points....


so whos the greatest then in your opinion...

 

[Neil]

tyson in his prime would eat these two for lunch...

And Ali in his prime would have given Tyson a big headache - and may have been clever enough to beat him.

As much as I appreciate Tyson in his prime being a truly devastating, almost unprecendented for a heavyweight - the scalps he took in his prime don't really reveal how good he was, then. All the same, Ali / Clay overcame much harder opponents that nobody really thought he would have done, in his day.

And Tyson's prime didn't truly last that long, Douglas took him when he shouldn't have been able, and that was about the start of the slide. He was never the same after prison.

He was the same person, exactly the same...a bully, a match-power bully. He got beat whenever he got hit back.

He was nothing like the same person - neither that nor the same boxer.

Go look at youtube videos of Tyson's early training.

I've never seen a heavyweight look as devastating. True, training is training, and fights are fights. But make no mistake, Tyson, in his prime, was truly something special in terms of his ability.

He style just didn't age well, and he had nothing like the mental and psychological strength - or for that mater intelligence of Ali / Clay.

I think Tyson was truly awesome in his prime. I also think Clay / Ali was a truly great heavyweight. I lost oodles of respect for Ali over how he behaved with Frazier, but all the same, I think a Clay / Ali in his prime would have beaten a Tyson in his prime.

All that said, there are a lot that downplay how good Tyson was - and I get why - but that is underestimating how good he truly was - and that, really, isn't shown by his early record.

 

[konatime]

tyson in his prime would eat these two for lunch...

And Ali in his prime would have given Tyson a big headache - and may have been clever enough to beat him.

As much as I appreciate Tyson in his prime being a truly devastating, almost unprecendented for a heavyweight - the scalps he took in his prime don't really reveal how good he was, then. All the same, Ali / Clay overcame much harder opponents that nobody really thought he would have done, in his day.

And Tyson's prime didn't truly last that long, Douglas took him when he shouldn't have been able, and that was about the start of the slide. He was never the same after prison.

He was the same person, exactly the same...a bully, a match-power bully. He got beat whenever he got hit back.

He was nothing like the same person - neither that nor the same boxer.

Go look at youtube videos of Tyson's early training.

I've never seen a heavyweight look as devastating. True, training is training, and fights are fights. But make no mistake, Tyson, in his prime, was truly something special in terms of his ability.

He style just didn't age well, and he had nothing like the mental and psychological strength - or for that mater intelligence of Ali / Clay.

I think Tyson was truly awesome in his prime. I also think Clay / Ali was a truly great heavyweight. I lost oodles of respect for Ali over how he behaved with Frazier, but all the same, I think a Clay / Ali in his prime would have beaten a Tyson in his prime.

All that said, there are a lot that downplay how good Tyson was - and I get why - but that is underestimating how good he truly was - and that, really, isn't shown by his early record.

Of course it don't mean Tyson was actually much kop cause you personally think he was Niel, try to read what his own camp felt about him, they were shitting themselves that the wheels were about to fall off a few times on that very planned rise to the title (did it never cross your mind why he was on mainstream TV free of charge-remember the ads ttttttyyyyson ). He was a made champion, a lot of money was invested and step-aside monies were documented to have been paid steering him away from all other known candidates of merit (i forgot Bowe from the list above). Even Atlas putting the shooter down his mouth after catching him sniffing around his 12yr old daughters friend could'nt stop Tysons camps roll....Atlas got the chop. Tyson could'nt switch styles, so once matched the only option is a curr-out..one that he took.

 

[Neil]

so whos the greatest then in your opinion...

Don't know as I'd just pick one.

Clay / Ali was truly great - I have some misgivings about how he acted at times, and his technique could have been improved on (ie he could have been even better)
Tyson was a great boxer in his prime - but let down by his early opponents not being that demanding. Also, I think he didn't have the psychological resilience or savvy of, say, Clay / Ali.
Liston was a truly devastating heavyweight, in his day - not being able to deal with Clay / Ali, diluted his standing a little - but all the same, a truly awesome heavyweight.

Other boxers I'd add to my list (no lesser in significance to the above, IMO):-

Sugar Ray Robinson
Marciano
Hagler
Roberto Duran (yes, even accepting the "No Mas" incident)
Eubank (although the latter part of his career was weakened by what happened after he fought Watson)

There's probably others, but those are what springs to mind at the mo.

 

[gibbleking]

he was never the same after the watson match...i think inside his desire to beat the other guy was only on points...unless it was nigel benn...some good choices...but no foreman?

 

[Neil]

Of course it don't mean Tyson was actually much kop cause you personally think he was Niel, try to read what his own camp felt about him, they were shitting themselves that the wheels were about to fall off a few times on that very planned rise to the title (did it never cross your mind why he was on mainstream TV free of charge-remember the ads ttttttyyyyson ). He was a made champion, a lot of money was invested and step-aside monies were documented to have been paid steering him away from all other known candidates of merit (i forgot Bowe from the list above). Even Atlas putting the shooter down his mouth after catching him sniffing around his 12yr old daughters friend could'nt stop Tysons camps roll....Atlas got the chop. Tyson could'nt switch styles, so once matched the only option is a curr-out..one that he took.

Oh come on - Tyson is far from the only boxer to have his opponents hand picked.

And practically every champion was "made".

He unified the belts, and wasn't he the youngest champion?

Bowe was a decent enough heavyweight - but that was about all she wrote. Never struggled the upper levels of fitness or being in shape, or even venturing that much outside of his envelope.

There's many who jump on the bandwagon that's never too slow by spouting all the rhetoric, and not really thinking about it, where Tyson is concerned. I've heard all those things before, and half of them are unthinking criticisms.

Sure, his window of being great was narrower than most would imagine - or should have been. His psychological resilience and motivation went down the tubes, too. And he was exploited by many.

And the loss of Cus D'Amato was a bigger aspect to both sides of him as a boxer. Your comments about switching styles, so glibly, is missing the point Tyson's original style of boxing that he was grounded in, suited him well - I think in fairness, without considerable buy-in, by all, as his career progressed, was likely to be an achilles heel, though, in trying to make him suddenly adopt something else.

All the same, his early years showed him to be an exceptional heavyweight, even if his scalps don't look that impressive in those years. He was a better boxer than his detractors give him credit for, replaced by the weak, cliched argument that he was nothing much more than an agressive thug.

Psychological weakness, lack of self-belief, exploitation by many, and unfulfilled potential are rightfully criticisms of him, but lack of boxing abilities and skill aren't.

Anyway, don't really know why I'm bothering - it's not like I put him on some pedestal, or that he's that high on my personal list - I just get irritated by the weak cliched arguments about him, like they only ever apply to him and nobody else.

His abilities as a heavyweight, certainly in his early pro years, were truly devastating and unprecedented - that the remainder of his career doesn't show congruency with that is worth noting, and fair comment, but it's weak and unthinking to dismiss him in comparison to many other great heavyweights.

 

[Neil]

he was never the same after the watson match...i think inside his desire to beat the other guy was only on points...unless it was nigel benn...some good choices...but no foreman?

I have no argument against Foreman, he's just not one of my personal faves.