dwscrimshaw
Retro Guru
Yes that would have been interesting.
Holdsworth Frame Numbering
- Thread starter dwscrimshaw
- Start date
dwscrimshaw
Retro Guru
Further updates with additional numbers. Below is the numbers with only major inconsistencies removed. The rest in on my Google drive, link below.
https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/ ... TNKZkN4TmM
https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/ ... TNKZkN4TmM
Senior Ryder
Retro Newbie
FYI,
From about 1961/62 through 1965 Holdsworth used a four digit serial number. I have a 1964 Typhoon, serial number 1527. I have also seen others from the period with this numbering.
Cheers,
Van
From about 1961/62 through 1965 Holdsworth used a four digit serial number. I have a 1964 Typhoon, serial number 1527. I have also seen others from the period with this numbering.
Cheers,
Van
dwscrimshaw
Retro Guru
Thanks, I did find your frame on line somewhere and looking again at the various comments found a couple of others too.
I have looked again at the numbers and using a couple of fairly confident datings, 28425 in 61 and 29953 in 65 I have tried to respect this 4 digit period. It does improve the charting, particularly unto 61/62. Guess we'll never really know, but does explain the lack of 5 digit numbers in this period.
https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/ ... TNKZkN4TmM
I have looked again at the numbers and using a couple of fairly confident datings, 28425 in 61 and 29953 in 65 I have tried to respect this 4 digit period. It does improve the charting, particularly unto 61/62. Guess we'll never really know, but does explain the lack of 5 digit numbers in this period.
https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/ ... TNKZkN4TmM
Senior Ryder
Retro Newbie
Great JOB!
Yes, great job.
I have been looking at serial numbers as well over the past few years in process of dating my '51 Sirocco, '65 Typhoon and '68 Claud Butler/Holdsworth clone. Thought I'd add 2p.
The following is an interesting article by "Retro Grupetto", quoting Kilgariff and his response to identifying a 1963 "Shop" Holdsworth. In it Kilgariff describes how the Holdsworth factory "reset" its numbering system from the year 62 or 63 until 64. Hence the confusing four digit numbers for this period. http://retroride.blogspot.ca/2007/05/ho ... _1672.html
Sometime shortly after 1975, the Holdsworth factory moved to Oakfield Road and production was ramped up over the next 10 years. Following the move it appears serial numbers for Clauds and Holdsworths were all lumped together. According to Kilgariff production had been at approx 1500 Holdsworth per year and jumped to 7000 by 1980 (including "Clauds") and by my own calculations close to 10000 by 1985 - the year of the Holdsworth takeover by Marlboro. This sequential numbering system always had 6 digits and always began with 0. Soo... it appears the first frame would have been 000001.
I have a rather, to say the least, lengthy dissertation re serial numbers on my Flickr site, if anyone is interested. I put this together more for my own recollection, after spending hours trying to make sense of my '68 Claud serial number.
https://www.flickr.com/photos/76762476@ ... 723035788/
Suffice to say serial numbers are a great aid to ID'g and dating a frame but must always be taken in context of frame details.
Doug
I have been looking at serial numbers as well over the past few years in process of dating my '51 Sirocco, '65 Typhoon and '68 Claud Butler/Holdsworth clone. Thought I'd add 2p.
The following is an interesting article by "Retro Grupetto", quoting Kilgariff and his response to identifying a 1963 "Shop" Holdsworth. In it Kilgariff describes how the Holdsworth factory "reset" its numbering system from the year 62 or 63 until 64. Hence the confusing four digit numbers for this period. http://retroride.blogspot.ca/2007/05/ho ... _1672.html
Sometime shortly after 1975, the Holdsworth factory moved to Oakfield Road and production was ramped up over the next 10 years. Following the move it appears serial numbers for Clauds and Holdsworths were all lumped together. According to Kilgariff production had been at approx 1500 Holdsworth per year and jumped to 7000 by 1980 (including "Clauds") and by my own calculations close to 10000 by 1985 - the year of the Holdsworth takeover by Marlboro. This sequential numbering system always had 6 digits and always began with 0. Soo... it appears the first frame would have been 000001.
I have a rather, to say the least, lengthy dissertation re serial numbers on my Flickr site, if anyone is interested. I put this together more for my own recollection, after spending hours trying to make sense of my '68 Claud serial number.
https://www.flickr.com/photos/76762476@ ... 723035788/
Suffice to say serial numbers are a great aid to ID'g and dating a frame but must always be taken in context of frame details.
Doug
dwscrimshaw
Retro Guru
Thanks for the info, will have a look through this in more detail latter.
dwscrimshaw
Retro Guru
Updated files on cloud https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/ ... TNKZkN4TmM
Interesting info on frame #'s around the early 60's in one of the links, interestingly my very crude split the difference in highest/lowest across the year change is fairly close.
Whichever I look at the data my Monsoon frame always comes out as 1958
Interesting info on frame #'s around the early 60's in one of the links, interestingly my very crude split the difference in highest/lowest across the year change is fairly close.
Whichever I look at the data my Monsoon frame always comes out as 1958
Hi dwscrimshaw,
Very helpful links. I have seen most of this in past but have not been so good at organizing. Great job.
Don't know if you have seen my Flickr site with Typhoon (#29953), but it's date of build is most definitely and exactly April 26, 1965. When I was restoring / rebuilding the bike several years back, a piece of oil stained paper fell out of the BB with I presume the builder or foreman's signature, finish details and date of completion. This rebuilt bike I had purchased 2nd hand in London in 1973 but never knew the model of frame or date. It was a eureka moment! Doesn't get much easier than this. Also points to sometimes inaccuracy of dating with factor of time of build to purchase.
Can't seem to attach pictures. Maybe not enough posts as I'm a Newbie. I do post more often on Bike Forums under allend. Here's link to pic of document: https://www.flickr.com/photos/76762476@ ... 492455432/
Doug
CBguy
- By coincidence "CB" refers to Cape Breton, Nova Scotia where I hail from and not Claud Butler!
Very helpful links. I have seen most of this in past but have not been so good at organizing. Great job.
Don't know if you have seen my Flickr site with Typhoon (#29953), but it's date of build is most definitely and exactly April 26, 1965. When I was restoring / rebuilding the bike several years back, a piece of oil stained paper fell out of the BB with I presume the builder or foreman's signature, finish details and date of completion. This rebuilt bike I had purchased 2nd hand in London in 1973 but never knew the model of frame or date. It was a eureka moment! Doesn't get much easier than this. Also points to sometimes inaccuracy of dating with factor of time of build to purchase.
Can't seem to attach pictures. Maybe not enough posts as I'm a Newbie. I do post more often on Bike Forums under allend. Here's link to pic of document: https://www.flickr.com/photos/76762476@ ... 492455432/
Doug
CBguy
- By coincidence "CB" refers to Cape Breton, Nova Scotia where I hail from and not Claud Butler!
torqueless
Senior Retro Guru
Re:
Let it be understood that I have no 'inside information', and what follows is based mainly on pics/information gleaned from the Kilgariff site, possibly misinterpreted by me, and bikes seen on this site:
The 'Holdsworth Special' seems to have been introduced some time around 1975/6. The early ones had a distinctive lugset/top eye treatment which after a few years seems to have been superseded by Prugnat longpoints/minimal 'semi' wraparound. Spookily, two examples of this early 'Special' have appeared recently on this forum with consecutive frame numbers, despite one of the owners maintaining that his frame was 'early seventies', even though it had the later serif decals afaik not used before 1976. (this frame number is included in your 'sample', dwscrimshaw.) Those numbers were in the mid 41,000s. I realise that this is right at the late edge of your temporal area of interest, but, pending a source of inside information coming forward with words to the effect: "No, we used that lugset/top eyes all through the '70s" , This evidence suggests to me that you might have mis-attributed frames that should be 'around 1976' to somewhere around 1974? If correct, this is also evidence that the new numbering system did not start until at least around 1976/7.
In case you missed it, 'the other one' is here: viewtopic.php?f=22&t=347031
I might be wrong, and this might be some standard lugset from the '70s that passed beneath my radar- always glad to be informed/corrected...
Let it be understood that I have no 'inside information', and what follows is based mainly on pics/information gleaned from the Kilgariff site, possibly misinterpreted by me, and bikes seen on this site:
The 'Holdsworth Special' seems to have been introduced some time around 1975/6. The early ones had a distinctive lugset/top eye treatment which after a few years seems to have been superseded by Prugnat longpoints/minimal 'semi' wraparound. Spookily, two examples of this early 'Special' have appeared recently on this forum with consecutive frame numbers, despite one of the owners maintaining that his frame was 'early seventies', even though it had the later serif decals afaik not used before 1976. (this frame number is included in your 'sample', dwscrimshaw.) Those numbers were in the mid 41,000s. I realise that this is right at the late edge of your temporal area of interest, but, pending a source of inside information coming forward with words to the effect: "No, we used that lugset/top eyes all through the '70s" , This evidence suggests to me that you might have mis-attributed frames that should be 'around 1976' to somewhere around 1974? If correct, this is also evidence that the new numbering system did not start until at least around 1976/7.
In case you missed it, 'the other one' is here: viewtopic.php?f=22&t=347031
I might be wrong, and this might be some standard lugset from the '70s that passed beneath my radar- always glad to be informed/corrected...
