Carlton Super Course needing some love - car boot find

[Midlife]

Ah! Never twigged about the need to swap out rusted spokes . The Suntour remover which is countersunk into the body isn't as bad as the old Regina and would be my first choice rather than taking it all apart

Shaun

 

[nonowt]

Re:

the Suntour freewheeler removers are readily available - I got mine from the LBS but there are loads on ebay too:

http://www.ebay.co.uk/sch/i.html?_odkw= ... r&_sacat=0

 

[Midlife]

Just looking back at the pics, some nice work going on but are the bars ok to use?

Shaun

 

[sherlylock]

Re: Re:

Great Project...regards the rim and crank decals, myself and a friend got Greg at Cyclomondo in oz to make them. if you notice we also had Carlton ones made up as well, there on his site...I have a set on my Criterium

Nice one. I'll drop him an email to see whether he can help out.

the general consensus seems to be not to take them apart.

Not for the first time I find myself at odds with the general consensus.. :| I bet that freewheel would benefit immensely from a proper service, and probably fresh balls.
Inside that freewheel you will find two races full of little balls, and between them a pair of pawls held by captive springs. To get at them, you can tap the (inner) lockring free with a hammer and appropriate screwdriver if you are careful. There's an arrow and 'unscrew' engraved on the ring, because it has right hand thread and unscrews counter-clockwise, unlike most other freewheels.

If the freewheel is moving OK then I'd leave it as they can be a mare to get off, the only reason to take them off is if you are replacing it.

Under 'normal' circumstances Shaun's advice would be sound, but chances are you are going to want to replace those rusty spokes, and it is a bloody nuisance to do that with the freewheel stuck in the way. Imo the best technique for removing obstinate freewheels is to strip them down completely, leaving just the inner body on the hub. On a two-pawl freewheel (this one is), the pawl-housings offer a much better vice-grip/leverage point than you get by using the two-prong removal tool in the slots. Plus-gas is your friend, as always! Just try not to damage the pawl housings.

What is the best lubrication to use for freewheels?

Imo it depends on how often you want to lubricate them. Oil, if you are going to remove (and oil) the block frequently. If not, light grease for the balls, with just a smear on the ratchet and pawls.

I'm actually considering adopting the practice of loosening my freewheel on its hub thread every day- they are such a bugger to get off.

I agree - I think the freewheel would def. benefit from a strip down......unless it's passable to flush and re-oil. It's the trade off between having something functioning at 85% or a pile of ball bearings and small springs on the kitchen table. (I'm sure curiosity will get the better of me eventually and I'll feel the need to pull it apart....if only to see how it works!) Thanks for the info on the internal layout!

Ah! Never twigged about the need to swap out rusted spokes . The Suntour remover which is countersunk into the body isn't as bad as the old Regina and would be my first choice rather than taking it all apart

Shaun

Yep - I'm hoping I can re-spoke the wheel, to get rid of the nasty rusted spokes. I've never built a wheel from scratch so I'm assuming I can replace spokes (which I have done) one by one and still retain some sort of wheel shaped object

the Suntour freewheeler removers are readily available - I got mine from the LBS but there are loads on ebay too:

http://www.ebay.co.uk/sch/i.html?_odkw= ... r&_sacat=0

Nice one - ordered!

Just looking back at the pics, some nice work going on but are the bars ok to use?

Shaun

Valid point and a question that went through my mind last night as I peeled off the tape. Are you thinking from the point of view that these could be corroded to a point that they may fracture whilst riding?

The worst bit of corrosion is shown - I'll have a better look tonight. It might be better to discard and source a replacement to be on the safe side.

 

[Midlife]

Yep, I wonder if there is corrosion of the bar on the inside? Personally I'd think about some new bars, all sorts of things can break but the front end usually means a faceful of tarmac

If you do strip the freewheel then my trick with keeping the pawls flat when re assembling is to wrap some cotton around them, lower the top of the body down and then pull out the cotton loop (before the two halves go completely together) but there are other ways you need some sticky grease as well to hold the balls in place.

Good work

Shaun

 

[sherlylock]

Faceful of tarmac. Yeah, that'd be bad.

Top tip for the freewheel reassembly, thanks. I think for the time being I'll look at removing it so I can replace spokes and a flush and re-oil to get the bike rolling and then re-visit when I start fine tuning stuff. I've got plenty of other stuff to do after all.....

 

[torqueless]

Re:

Never twigged about the need to swap out rusted spokes

Well.. I don't know if that is on Sherylock's agenda, or indeed how rusty the spokes really are, or how true the wheels are, or whether the nipples are rusted? Cautionary tale: I broke a bit of the flange off one of those Normandy small flange rear hubs a few years back, on a similarly neglected wheel, just by cutting the spokes. Must have introduced some uneven tension. Of course you don't really want to be cutting spokes if you've yet to remove the block..

. The Suntour remover which is countersunk into the body isn't as bad as the old Regina and would be my first choice rather than taking it all apart

Yeah my first choice too- But for me, nothing about the way those two-prong removers (fail to) work is going to inspire me to persevere with them for long.. Maybe mine is too generic, and doesn't actually fit any of the slots properly..

Edit: I just saw your post, Sherylock. Yeah I have exactly the same freewheel. Had it since the '80s. Either from design or corrosion, it has relatively weak pawl springs, which, for better or worse, makes it more critical to keep it gunk-free inside than a stronger springed freewheel.

Edit edit: If this post doesn't make much sense it is because three posts appeared during the time I was composing it!

 

[sherlylock]

Re: Re:

Never twigged about the need to swap out rusted spokes

Well.. I don't know if that is on Sherylock's agenda, or indeed how rusty the spokes really are, or how true the wheels are, or whether the nipples are rusted? Cautionary tale: I broke a bit of the flange off one of those Normandy small flange rear hubs a few years back, on a similarly neglected wheel, just by cutting the spokes. Must have introduced some uneven tension. Of course you don't really want to be cutting spokes if you've yet to remove the block..

. The Suntour remover which is countersunk into the body isn't as bad as the old Regina and would be my first choice rather than taking it all apart

Yeah my first choice too- But for me, nothing about the way those two-prong removers (fail to) work is going to inspire me to persevere with them for long.. Maybe mine is too generic, and doesn't actually fit any of the slots properly..

Edit: I just saw your post, Sherylock. Yeah I have exactly the same freewheel. Had it since the '80s. Either from design or corrosion, it has relatively weak pawl springs, which, for better or worse, makes it more critical to keep it gunk-free inside than a stronger springed freewheel.

Edit edit: If this post doesn't make much sense it is because three posts appeared during the time I was composing it!

Interesting point about the pronged tools not working particularly well. I've ordered a Park tool so I'll look forward to getting frustrated with that when it turns up.

I had a brief attempt at tapping the outer lockring round last night but its not going to budge like that - I'll end up damaging it before it starts moving I think. Plusgas needed!

Investigated the hub bearings on the front wheel - as the spindle was properly notchy & grumbly. Quite surprised to find, after a good clean that everything is spotless and no corrosion. Should go back together nicely. Also took a spoke off so I could measure and source some replacements.

I'm so tempted just to strip this wheel right down so I can clean the hub and rim properly (without spokes in the way) and then attempt my first wheel build.......can't be that hard can it? *tongue placed firmly in cheek*

 

[torqueless]

Re:

the spokes are properly rusted.....they'll need replacing for sure.

Apologies for failing to remember this line from upthread!

Yeah, I'm struggling to find an analogy for the unfavourable leverage situation inherent in those pronged removers. I was going to say imagine trying to remove a wheelnut by drilling two little holes in it's outboard face, but it is worse than that, because in that case the leverage would still be applied outside the thread circumference. I guess this is one reason why the freehub was invented, which doubtless has all the vices that go with its virtues- I wouldn't know.

Just to be clear, (hopefully,) beyond the 'orbit' of the inside ring which houses the big slots for the removal tool, there are two outer rings with diametric slots. It is the inner of these two rings which is the lockring. The very outer ring is actually the race for the outer bearings. Those two outer rings mate at a 45deg. angle. Both of them are actually threaded onto the inner body (the bit with the big remover slots that is likely tenaciously attached to the hub thread)

I'd encourage you to give wheelbuilding a go, if you have the time. It is mainly methodical, and there are bound to be internet tutorials. It helps to have an intact 'model' to copy. Once you've got the right spokes/nipples, and provided you avoid overtensioning any spoke, or group of spokes, prematurely, there is not much that can go wrong that cannot be reversed. And you don't need a truing stand- your bike frame is a perfectly adequate truing stand already.

 

[sherlylock]

Re: Re:

the spokes are properly rusted.....they'll need replacing for sure.

Apologies for failing to remember this line from upthread!

Yeah, I'm struggling to find an analogy for the unfavourable leverage situation inherent in those pronged removers. I was going to say imagine trying to remove a wheelnut by drilling two little holes in it's outboard face, but it is worse than that, because in that case the leverage would still be applied outside the thread circumference. I guess this is one reason why the freehub was invented, which doubtless has all the vices that go with its virtues- I wouldn't know.

Just to be clear, (hopefully,) beyond the 'orbit' of the inside ring which houses the big slots for the removal tool, there are two outer rings with diametric slots. It is the inner of these two rings which is the lockring. The very outer ring is actually the race for the outer bearings. Those two outer rings mate at a 45deg. angle. Both of them are actually threaded onto the inner body (the bit with the big remover slots that is likely tenaciously attached to the hub thread)

I'd encourage you to give wheelbuilding a go, if you have the time. It is mainly methodical, and there are bound to be internet tutorials. It helps to have an intact 'model' to copy. Once you've got the right spokes/nipples, and provided you avoid overtensioning any spoke, or group of spokes, prematurely, there is not much that can go wrong that cannot be reversed. And you don't need a truing stand- your bike frame is a perfectly adequate truing stand already.

I'm pinning my hopes on the fact that other than being left outside for years it really doesn't seem to have had much use. I'm guessing that with the direction of pedaling these freewheel bodies (and the rear sprockets) get progressively tighter as the bike is ridden (up to a point obviously). The fact that the sprockets came off without too much grief has given me some confidence. We'll see......

302mm long spokes (measured from the inside of the bend), 2mm at the ends butted down to 1.5ish in the middle. Sound about right? Anyone got any recommendations on what to buy? Currently looking at DT Swiss butted stainless spokes......

Really really tempted to give wheel building a shot.....on the front wheel at least. Bit confused about how you achieve a dish on the rear - different length spokes?