Any idea what year my Marin Team Titanium was born please?
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Uncle Buck
Retrobike Rider
Re: Any idea what year my Marin Team Titanium was born pleas
WEEEELL?
Don't keep us in suspenders!
WEEEELL?
Don't keep us in suspenders!
Re: Any idea what year my Marin Team Titanium was born pleas
Comparing it with what I have and what I know, it's actually an oddity - a very nice oddity!
The tell tale signs of it being a 92/93 were instantly visible from your first batch of photos, hence why I made a fairly quick presumption.
When I looked further, there were a few things that didn't stack up.
The design of the cable stops, the position of the frame number, the external butting of the head tube, which all led me to ask what the dropouts and seat clamp looked like.
The evidence so far is this...
- The polishing of the main tubes is thought to have been '92 and '93.
- External butting on head tube is 1994 onwards.
- The design of the cable stops is post '93.
- The frame number is consistent with Litespeed's method of coding, and the number suggests after 1993.
- The position of the frame number is something that was generally done on the Far East frames of '95 and '96.
- The seat clamp is post '93, but pre '95.
- The dropouts are post '93.
- The decals look genuine as they are a screen printed decal rather than the cut vinyl graphics made by plotters.
It seems to borrow bits from three different years of bikes when you look closer, and as such is hard to pin down. I've seen a lot of Marin Ti frames and they are generally consistent with their years. There are some minor detail changes that crop up in the same model year, but it's likely that the frames were either up-specced to whatever Litespeed (for example) had started to use on their own range as dropouts etc. ran out.
If I was forced to hold it to a year, then I'd probably put it at late '94. If it wasn't part polished then I'd be more confident. Furthermore, I'd say it may have been something Litespeed were working on to renew their contract with Marin as this is the time that they lost their lucrative deal to the Far East. Who knows, it may have been a production run prototype. Titanium frames take a lot of skill, time and money to produce, so it's highly unlikely to be thrown away if the idea was rejected. The frames were just too expensive, so they would have been badged up and sold. From what I understand, Litespeed had a quite a bit of autonomy in the build process and specifications of the early Marin frames, and they often followed their own progressive methods and ideas to keep them up to date. After all, let's remember who the real Titanium experts were!
All in all, it's a Marin Team titanium, and will make a lovely (albeit unusual) bike.
On a further note, the 'Ultimate' was the same frame as the '95 Team Titanium (albeit made in USA by Ti Sports). The name really refers to the difference in finishing kit as I doubt there’s any real difference in the frame being US or Taiwanese built. It used the same finishing kit as on my '94 Ti FRS ( white Industries hubs, Mavic 230 TIB's, critical racing cantis, Topline cranks etc), rather than the lower grade parts they sold the team Ti with. It always confused me why the brochure for '95 makes reference to it in a photo, but never actually explains what it really is. Dealers of the Ultimate at the time would be quite willing to swap bits out to ensure a sale too. So, the spec was never religiously followed as personal taste and wallet would fine tune.
Comparing it with what I have and what I know, it's actually an oddity - a very nice oddity!
The tell tale signs of it being a 92/93 were instantly visible from your first batch of photos, hence why I made a fairly quick presumption.
When I looked further, there were a few things that didn't stack up.
The design of the cable stops, the position of the frame number, the external butting of the head tube, which all led me to ask what the dropouts and seat clamp looked like.
The evidence so far is this...
- The polishing of the main tubes is thought to have been '92 and '93.
- External butting on head tube is 1994 onwards.
- The design of the cable stops is post '93.
- The frame number is consistent with Litespeed's method of coding, and the number suggests after 1993.
- The position of the frame number is something that was generally done on the Far East frames of '95 and '96.
- The seat clamp is post '93, but pre '95.
- The dropouts are post '93.
- The decals look genuine as they are a screen printed decal rather than the cut vinyl graphics made by plotters.
It seems to borrow bits from three different years of bikes when you look closer, and as such is hard to pin down. I've seen a lot of Marin Ti frames and they are generally consistent with their years. There are some minor detail changes that crop up in the same model year, but it's likely that the frames were either up-specced to whatever Litespeed (for example) had started to use on their own range as dropouts etc. ran out.
If I was forced to hold it to a year, then I'd probably put it at late '94. If it wasn't part polished then I'd be more confident. Furthermore, I'd say it may have been something Litespeed were working on to renew their contract with Marin as this is the time that they lost their lucrative deal to the Far East. Who knows, it may have been a production run prototype. Titanium frames take a lot of skill, time and money to produce, so it's highly unlikely to be thrown away if the idea was rejected. The frames were just too expensive, so they would have been badged up and sold. From what I understand, Litespeed had a quite a bit of autonomy in the build process and specifications of the early Marin frames, and they often followed their own progressive methods and ideas to keep them up to date. After all, let's remember who the real Titanium experts were!
All in all, it's a Marin Team titanium, and will make a lovely (albeit unusual) bike.
On a further note, the 'Ultimate' was the same frame as the '95 Team Titanium (albeit made in USA by Ti Sports). The name really refers to the difference in finishing kit as I doubt there’s any real difference in the frame being US or Taiwanese built. It used the same finishing kit as on my '94 Ti FRS ( white Industries hubs, Mavic 230 TIB's, critical racing cantis, Topline cranks etc), rather than the lower grade parts they sold the team Ti with. It always confused me why the brochure for '95 makes reference to it in a photo, but never actually explains what it really is. Dealers of the Ultimate at the time would be quite willing to swap bits out to ensure a sale too. So, the spec was never religiously followed as personal taste and wallet would fine tune.
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Re: Any idea what year my Marin Team Titanium was born pleas
Wow,
Thank you very much, and to everyone else, for all your efforts and input.
When I bought it from 'Recycle' in 2000, the guy who sold me it did say that he thought it was one of the last ones made by Litespeed - but at the time:
a) I didn't really know much, if anything, about Litespeed, titanium, or any other 'proper' mountain bikes really. The only two I had owned before that were an '89/90 Saracen Traverse and a 1992 Rocky Ridge (which had just been stolen in London after deciding to be a courier), and,
b) I wasn't really sure if he was just feeding me a line - as £500 for a 2nd hand frame was, and still is quite a bit of money.
Anyway, I'm glad that I've eventually got around to finding out more about it - even though its still a bit of a mystery.
So, if I could just ask a few more questions...
Would you say that it is definitely made by Litespeed judging by the frame number, or is that impossible to tell?
What was Litespeed's method of coding and how do you know that it suggests a post '93 frame?
When did Litespeed stop making for (lose their contract with) Marin and are the Litespeed ones generally thought of as being superior to the later ones - or just different?
Sorry for 'not letting it lie' but I am eager to learn as much about it as possible.
I also didn't realise that the 'Ultimate' frame was the same as the 'Team Ti'. The German-language '95 catalogue confused my Yorkshire brain - I thought some parts of the Ultimate were a different grade...3/2.5 and 6/4, but couldn't work out the actual wording.
Anyway - now, in my head I will think of it/her as being a unique prototype. It sounds better than mongrel.
Thanks again,
Andrew.
Wow,
Thank you very much, and to everyone else, for all your efforts and input.
When I bought it from 'Recycle' in 2000, the guy who sold me it did say that he thought it was one of the last ones made by Litespeed - but at the time:
a) I didn't really know much, if anything, about Litespeed, titanium, or any other 'proper' mountain bikes really. The only two I had owned before that were an '89/90 Saracen Traverse and a 1992 Rocky Ridge (which had just been stolen in London after deciding to be a courier), and,
b) I wasn't really sure if he was just feeding me a line - as £500 for a 2nd hand frame was, and still is quite a bit of money.
Anyway, I'm glad that I've eventually got around to finding out more about it - even though its still a bit of a mystery.
So, if I could just ask a few more questions...
Would you say that it is definitely made by Litespeed judging by the frame number, or is that impossible to tell?
What was Litespeed's method of coding and how do you know that it suggests a post '93 frame?
When did Litespeed stop making for (lose their contract with) Marin and are the Litespeed ones generally thought of as being superior to the later ones - or just different?
Sorry for 'not letting it lie' but I am eager to learn as much about it as possible.
I also didn't realise that the 'Ultimate' frame was the same as the 'Team Ti'. The German-language '95 catalogue confused my Yorkshire brain - I thought some parts of the Ultimate were a different grade...3/2.5 and 6/4, but couldn't work out the actual wording.
Anyway - now, in my head I will think of it/her as being a unique prototype. It sounds better than mongrel.
Thanks again,
Andrew.
Re: Any idea what year my Marin Team Titanium was born pleas
Would you say that it is definitely made by Litespeed judging by the frame number, or is that impossible to tell?
No, like I said it's likely as it uses the 4 digit frame number code which seems consistent with the chronological pattern I've seen with many other 'year confirmed' Marin Ti frames.
When did Litespeed stop making for (lose their contract with) Marin and are the Litespeed ones generally thought of as being superior to the later ones - or just different?
Around 93/94
Sorry for 'not letting it lie' but I am eager to learn as much about it as possible.
I also didn't realise that the 'Ultimate' frame was the same as the 'Team Ti'. The German-language '95 catalogue confused my Yorkshire brain - I thought some parts of the Ultimate were a different grade...3/2.5 and 6/4, but couldn't work out the actual wording.
No, it's just a badge to help distinguish its upgraded components.[/quote]
Would you say that it is definitely made by Litespeed judging by the frame number, or is that impossible to tell?
No, like I said it's likely as it uses the 4 digit frame number code which seems consistent with the chronological pattern I've seen with many other 'year confirmed' Marin Ti frames.
When did Litespeed stop making for (lose their contract with) Marin and are the Litespeed ones generally thought of as being superior to the later ones - or just different?
Around 93/94
Sorry for 'not letting it lie' but I am eager to learn as much about it as possible.
I also didn't realise that the 'Ultimate' frame was the same as the 'Team Ti'. The German-language '95 catalogue confused my Yorkshire brain - I thought some parts of the Ultimate were a different grade...3/2.5 and 6/4, but couldn't work out the actual wording.
No, it's just a badge to help distinguish its upgraded components.[/quote]
