Claud Butler European

[awac]

Juvela speaks a lot of sense (he is a living cycle encyclopedia!), especially re the cost of campy bits, it can raise the price quite quickly. Just keep in mind that classic bikes generally sell for less than the price of their parts unless they are very rare! You can always get your money back by selling the bits again, but it normally turns into a er, a cycle of love, excuse the pun! I can find no other pleasure in the world that compares to Researching, Restoring and Riding (V-CC's perfect logo). You will want more if it bites you......look up N+1

Re campy. Look at https://www.campyonly.com/history/catalogs.html and find a catalogue year if you want to get parts period.

To be honest for your first classic build go for affordable parts in the right decade. It will look right to many people, you will learn what you like and then replace parts when you find a bargain!

 

[jaso]

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Campag Gran Sport gear ensembles are plentiful

you can be selective with respect to cost an condition by comparing them

Lyotard model 15S pedals are also easy to find and not costly

View attachment 982242

the three-piece Campag Gran Sport hubs of the cycle in the catalogue page are sought after an fairly costly

another period correct Campag hub you could use is the Sportman model, these are less costly

View attachment 982243View attachment 982244View attachment 982245

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Thank you once again. Your excellent help is giving me a real feel for the bike and those Campag hubs do look good but I will definitely have a look at the Sportsman model. I do want to do the bike justice and I will probably spread the cost of the build over the winter. I have just taken out the bottom bracket and it was surprisingly rust free thanks to a thick roll of cardboard protecting the pedal spindle. The brake hanger is similar to but not identical with the Dia Compe 1254 hanger. I will keep looking. I have just removed the front fork and it has the same serial number as the one stamped on the bottom bracket which is reassuring.

Thanks once again for your time and knowledge.

 

[juvela]

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thanks very much for the additional images & information

my error!

front brake hanger very different from what thought it to be

this is a product of the firm Fratelli Pietra and is Universal brand

t'is item nr. 105/A


its presence suggests cycle's model of brake was Universal number 61 -



if frame designed for twenty-seven inch wheel you should find brake centres to be ~55mm front and ~64mm rear


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hub note -

hub model mentioned above is Sportman rather than Sportsman

a Sportman model rear gear mech was also produced which launched ~1962

this hub model is a bit of an odd component in that it is a "catalogue orphan"
it appears in no general catalogue from the manufacturer

it launched just after publication of catalogue nr. 14 in 1960 and was superseded by the Nuovo Tipo model hub prior to the publication of catalogue nr. 15 in 1967

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subject model cycle frame exhibits one detail not shown in catalogue depiction posted above

it shows forward facing fork blade eyelet at about the midpoint in the length of the blade

this is not present in catalogue illustration


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gear ensemble -

you mention checking ebay in an earlier message
if you check online classifieds it is possible you may discover you can get the three-piece gear ensemble for a lower total cost by purchasing a complete set than by purchasing the three components individually

the Gran Sport model rear gear mech enjoyed a relatively long production life with several generations

these are illustrated at the velobase web site which was unfortunately down with some technical problem the last time checked

if you are satisfied with a 1964 date for the frame this would bring up the possibility of employing a Campag Record model rear gear mech which launched that year; unfortunately it tends to be more costly than the Gran Sport model

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chainset -

specification gives "Willams model LC"
should you find this too difficult or costly you might wish to consider using a Williams model which was kept in production by the Birmingham firm of Nicklin following the cessation of play by Williams -

https://www.classiclightweights.co..../williams-crank-and-chainring-identification/


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[jaso]

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thanks very much for the additional images & information

my error!

front brake hanger very different from what thought it to be

this is a product of the firm Fratelli Pietra and is Universal brand

t'is item nr. 105/A

View attachment 982292
its presence suggests cycle's model of brake was Universal number 61 -

View attachment 982294

if frame designed for twenty-seven inch wheel you should find brake centres to be ~55mm front and ~64mm rear


---

hub note -

hub model mentioned above is Sportman rather than Sportsman

a Sportman model rear gear mech was also produced which launched ~1962

this hub model is a bit of an odd component in that it is a "catalogue orphan"
it appears in no general catalogue from the manufacturer

it launched just after publication of catalogue nr. 14 in 1960 and was superseded by the Nuovo Tipo model hub prior to the publication of catalogue nr. 15 in 1967

---

subject model cycle frame exhibits one detail not shown in catalogue depiction posted above

it shows forward facing fork blade eyelet at about the midpoint in the length of the blade

this is not present in catalogue illustration


---

gear ensemble -

you mention checking ebay in an earlier message
if you check online classifieds it is possible you may discover you can get the three-piece gear ensemble for a lower total cost by purchasing a complete set than by purchasing the three components individually

the Gran Sport model rear gear mech enjoyed a relatively long production life with several generations

these are illustrated at the velobase web site which was unfortunately down with some technical problem the last time checked

if you are satisfied with a 1964 date for the frame this would bring up the possibility of employing a Campag Record model rear gear mech which launched that year; unfortunately it tends to be more costly than the Gran Sport model

---

chainset -

specification gives "Willams model LC"
should you find this too difficult or costly you might wish to consider using a Williams model which was kept in production by the Birmingham firm of Nicklin following the cessation of play by Williams -

https://www.classiclightweights.co..../williams-crank-and-chainring-identification/


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Very grateful for the advice about the brakes and I will definitely look at the Campag record as well. Also good spot re the fork eyelet, I will have another look at that. Your advice has been invaluable and thank you for all the links.
Best wishes

I am busy putting all of these details together in my build plan

 

[Coalfield]

Sorry for the generic reply, but you did mention 'new to vintage' in post #1.

awac's post above (#11) is the way I approach a frameset build - especially if the frameset is over 40 yrs old or looking extremely ..... used and not 'honored'. There were a couple of builds that I postponed for the correct components only to finish proudly ..... with a bike that did not reward the effort, or had a previously unknown issue. There may be the frame alignment or fork tweaks - even of a minor nature - to the inexperienced assembler - they can become roadblocks to a trustworthy bicycle. [example: It rides and tracks great, but no-handed it pulls right. or brakes a little funny on descents and the front wheel may be a tiny bit off-center, or that little paint crack seems bigger after the rough 1st journey.]

If one is building the frame to be ridden, not 'collected' - ride it with a quick build of known functional components that fit - then evaluate - then proceed with confidence that the ride quality will be pleasurable and the build thoughtful to purpose. One gets better after a few N+1s.




Still working hard to be more than a dirt disciple.

 

[juvela]

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one high quality steel road stem you could employ as a replacement, either short term or long term, for a badged Cinelli would be a Titan from Belgium

unfortunately the clamp size on a standard Titan is 27.0mm rather than the 25.4mm one would wish for a GB bar

t'is possible the maker did clamp sizes of other than 27.0mm

Titan stems can be somewhat dearish but nothing like Cinelli



a "limp" track model

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the posted image of the bottom bracket area brings up two thoughts -

a) fixed cup appears to have loosened

b) lack of visible guide or stop for a front gear cable could mean bicycle produced as one with a single plateau drive train

there may be a housing stop brazed to the non-drive side of the down tube; and/or one brazed to the backside of the seat tube

if research shows model produced as both single plateau and double it would give you a choice of how you wish to set it up

manual front mechs had been discontinued by 1964, final year for the Juy (Simplex) ones was 1961

they continued to be manufactured in Warsaw Pact lands at least as late as 1967

---

brake levers for the Universal model 61 brakeset would have been the model 306 -



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[jaso]

Sorry for the generic reply, but you did mention 'new to vintage' in post #1.

awac's post above (#11) is the way I approach a frameset build - especially if the frameset is over 40 yrs old or looking extremely ..... used and not 'honored'. There were a couple of builds that I postponed for the correct components only to finish proudly ..... with a bike that did not reward the effort, or had a previously unknown issue. There may be the frame alignment or fork tweaks - even of a minor nature - to the inexperienced assembler - they can become roadblocks to a trustworthy bicycle. [example: It rides and tracks great, but no-handed it pulls right. or brakes a little funny on descents and the front wheel may be a tiny bit off-center, or that little paint crack seems bigger after the rough 1st journey.]

If one is building the frame to be ridden, not 'collected' - ride it with a quick build of known functional components that fit - then evaluate - then proceed with confidence that the ride quality will be pleasurable and the build thoughtful to purpose. One gets better after a few N+1s.

Thank you that's great advice for a newbie like me and I will certainly follow it going forward. I appreciate you posting this.

 

[jaso]

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one high quality steel road stem you could employ as a replacement, either short term or long term, for a badged Cinelli would be a Titan from Belgium

unfortunately the clamp size on a standard Titan is 27.0mm rather than the 25.4mm one would wish for a GB bar

t'is possible the maker did clamp sizes of other than 27.0mm

Titan stems can be somewhat dearish but nothing like Cinelli

View attachment 982336
View attachment 982337
a "limp" track model

---

the posted image of the bottom bracket area brings up two thoughts -

a) fixed cup appears to have loosened

b) lack of visible guide or stop for a front gear cable could mean bicycle produced as one with a single plateau drive train

there may be a housing stop brazed to the non-drive side of the down tube; and/or one brazed to the backside of the seat tube

if research shows model produced as both single plateau and double it would give you a choice of how you wish to set it up

manual front mechs had been discontinued by 1964, final year for the Juy (Simplex) ones was 1961

they continued to be manufactured in Warsaw Pact lands at least as late as 1967

---

brake levers for the Universal model 61 brakeset would have been the model 306 -

View attachment 982338

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That's great. The Cinelli badged ones are very expensive but also very elegant but I will look at Titan as you suggest..very interesting. Thank you for the brake lever info. I removed the bottom bracket this evening. It was remarkably easy and only very clean with no obvious signs of wear to the cups. I was wondering if it was a single drive train because of the single guide and I am pleased you remarked on that and I will check it again. Thanks once again.

 

[juvela]

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forgot to mention -

your member page makes no indication of location

if perchance you have one or more bicycle co-ops/charities near you they can be and excellent source of vintage parts at quite low cost


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[jaso]

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forgot to mention -

your member page makes no indication of location

if perchance you have one or more bicycle co-ops/charities near you they can be and excellent source of vintage parts at quite low cost


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That's a great idea. I have a couple near me and I am always calling in to have a look around to try and support them so I will have a word with the manager who I know at one of them. I am sure he will also have a world of possibilities. I will have a look at the members page too. Thanks I will go tomorrow morning and take your helpful advice.