Early Colnago experts?

[petgel]

Hi

I have just happened across an early 72 or 73 colnago which is claimed and appears to be an ex Molteni team frame.

I don’t have pics to hand but, although obviously a colnago early type super there are no clover leaf cutouts in lugs, only the typical colnago cotout under BB shell. I think that all production frames had the lug and fork crown cutouts by then (72/73), would this be correct? This has none in the fork crown either, only the two viper fang holes either side. It is 100% an early super but am wondering about the lack of cutouts only being for team frames (some had them some didn’t)

It has also been poorly painted dark blue so am wondering about paint code colours for earlier Molteni if anyone has a clue. Will post some pics when available.

 

[SteelNipple]

Pics would help, but from what I think to know about Colnagos is that the first Colnago Supers in late 60s had no clubs/clovers. Those had crown with the two fangs and two holes on the sides, seven holes in the BB, "spearhead" seat stay tops and double hole cutouts on the topside of the head tube lugs and on the seat tube lug.
After 1969 when Colnago started using the club/clover symbol on his bikes some Supers did not have the club on top of the crown, but those still should have the club cutouts on the top side of the head tube lugs and on the seat tube lug. Some early 70s Supers had club inside a "C" on the fork crown and from around 73 just the club symbol and no holes on crown fangs. Is there a club cutout on the fork tangs?
I can't say for sure who build majority of the Team Molteni bikes arount that time, but didn't Merckx use variably De Rosa, Colnago and Kessels build bikes around 72/73.
Could it be Kessels or a De Rosa or something else? During that time both Kessels and De Rosa frames had the two fangs on the fork crown but no eyes/holes.
I've seen some frames with no special/distinctive cutouts/markings/pantographs and with forks that have the crown with the two fangs and two eyes

 

[petgel]

Pics would help, but from what I think to know about Colnagos is that the first Colnago Supers in late 60s had no clubs/clovers. Those had crown with the two fangs and two holes on the sides, seven holes in the BB, "spearhead" seat stay tops and double hole cutouts on the topside of the head tube lugs and on the seat tube lug.
After 1969 when Colnago started using the club/clover symbol on his bikes some Supers did not have the club on top of the crown, but those still should have the club cutouts on the top side of the head tube lugs and on the seat tube lug. Some early 70s Supers had club inside a "C" on the fork crown and from around 73 just the club symbol and no holes on crown fangs. Is there a club cutout on the fork tangs?
I can't say for sure who build majority of the Team Molteni bikes arount that time, but didn't Merckx use variably De Rosa, Colnago and Kessels build bikes around 72/73.
Could it be Kessels or a De Rosa or something else? During that time both Kessels and De Rosa frames had the two fangs on the fork crown but no eyes/holes.
I've seen some frames with no special/distinctive cutouts/markings/pantographs and with forks that have the crown with the two fangs and two eyes

Thanks, it’s defo Colnago, not DeRosa or Kessels and it’s from very early 70s, seller told me 73. Have attached pics of same details the exception being no clovers on fork crown/headlug. Identical long pint lugs to blue frame no no cloverleafs

I have been told all production frames in early 70s wooukd have cutouts and usually Chrome where the team frames didn’t (although some did).

 

[petgel]

Pics of actual frame.

 

[SteelNipple]

I looked at many early 70s Colnagos and that type of BB shell must be uncommon for Colnagos because I saw only one, a Super Pista, with that shell. But the other braze ons and "builder marks" looks to be correct for a early 70s Super, still I'm not an expert and isn't the rule for Colnagos that there should be a club somewhere else other than the BB shell?

 

[petgel]

I looked at many early 70s Colnagos and that type of BB shell must be uncommon for Colnagos because I saw only one, a Super Pista, with that shell. But the other braze ons and "builder marks" looks to be correct for a early 70s Super, still I'm not an expert and isn't the rule for Colnagos that there should be a club somewhere else other than the BB shell?

thanks. It’s not in doubt that it is an early 70s Super ( and many of the supers from early 70s have the exact same cutout in BB shell) as it has now been confirmed by the factory themselves. They are being extremely helpful and say it is unusual to not have the cutouts in lugs, hence the belief that it is a team issue bike. They are trying to find which team/rider although apparently records are not complete so may never know. It would appear though that all production bikes had cutouts in lugs but many team bikes didn’t. Also the dimensions of the frame point more to it being made for a particular rider than a stock frame being 59.5cm c to t seat tube but only a 56cm c to c top tube make for a quite upright twitchy frame such as woukd be used in Crit races or such.

 

[SteelNipple]

thanks. It’s not in doubt that it is an early 70s Super ( and many of the supers from early 70s have the exact same cutout in BB shell) as it has now been confirmed by the factory themselves. They are being extremely helpful and say it is unusual to not have the cutouts in lugs, hence the belief that it is a team issue bike. They are trying to find which team/rider although apparently records are not complete so may never know. It would appear though that all production bikes had cutouts in lugs but many team bikes didn’t. Also the dimensions of the frame point more to it being made for a particular rider than a stock frame being 59.5cm c to t seat tube but only a 56cm c to c top tube make for a quite upright twitchy frame such as woukd be used in Crit races or such.

Good that you have their confirmation with the authenticity and I meant the shape of the BB lugs where the chain stays go.
Well it's unusual for post 1970 Colnago to not have the cutout on a lug. Some of the late 60s Supers had club cutouts, but the late 60's team Molteni Colnagos did not have any club cutouts?
Colnago Supers from that era should be "square" geometry, for example TT and ST 56cm C-C, so your frame has 1-1.5cm longer seat tube?
Quite possible that if it was a custom order for a team rider with different than normal frame geometry the lugs would also have to be custom fit(different angles for the main triangle from standard production) and leaving the cutouts undone would have saved time?

 

[petgel]

Good that you have their confirmation with the authenticity and I meant the shape of the BB lugs where the chain stays go.
Well it's unusual for post 1970 Colnago to not have the cutout on a lug. Some of the late 60s Supers had club cutouts, but the late 60's team Molteni Colnagos did not have any club cutouts?
Colnago Supers from that era should be "square" geometry, for example TT and ST 56cm C-C, so your frame has 1-1.5cm longer seat tube?
Quite possible that if it was a custom order for a team rider with different than normal frame geometry the lugs would also have to be custom made and leaving the cutouts undone would have saved time?

View attachment 972852

Ah yes, I see what you mean re the bottom bracket, again a bit unusual. I am hoping that colnago can trace the frame as they say they have many blueprints from that era of tge frames made for specific riders but it is not complete. I am led to believe the 6 on the dropout would again point o potentials a team frame, it was number 6 in that batch to identify the rider during the build. Once the bike was complete the riders name would have simply been hand marked on the top tube. It’s a beautiful frame nonetheless and I have all the parts for it so looking forward to building it. Just waiting for forks to come back from rechroming the crown.

 

[petgel]

Good that you have their confirmation with the authenticity and I meant the shape of the BB lugs where the chain stays go.
Well it's unusual for post 1970 Colnago to not have the cutout on a lug. Some of the late 60s Supers had club cutouts, but the late 60's team Molteni Colnagos did not have any club cutouts?
Colnago Supers from that era should be "square" geometry, for example TT and ST 56cm C-C, so your frame has 1-1.5cm longer seat tube?
Quite possible that if it was a custom order for a team rider with different than normal frame geometry the lugs would also have to be custom made and leaving the cutouts undone would have saved time?

View attachment 972852

Another one I found

 

[SteelNipple]

Here's Giovanni Martella's 1974 team SCIC Colnago. Looks to be just like yours but it has the club on fork crown and on the lower headtube lug.
https://www.flickr.com/photos/11521783@N05/albums/72157630126834824/