Project GRUBB (1960 F.H.Grubb, holdsworth era plain 531)

[Muddy paw]

Well yes i have to agree that a rechrome isn't cheap at all unfortunately and tbh i'm surprised you found a replacement pair that quick ..

Those hubs n rims look pretty damn good so they'll look great when polished up with some metal polish although i remember using brillo pads when i got my 1st bike after leaving school :facepalm: ..

 

[randomdan]

Re:

I must admit a lot of the chrome is really beyond saving. I was experimenting earlier to see if the cranks would clean up - no chance there - very poor but also nothing to loose. Tried wire wool soaked in WD40, baking foil, and even just a sharp blade scraping through the layers of rust. Improved them somewhat, but still nowhere near usable... Just gone too far to be saved by DIY..

On the plus side, the hubs came up pretty well. Rear has some pitting, but I can live with that. Front is near perfect.

Now to agonise some more about spoke choice for the wheel build - spokes come out at 305mm which limits choice. Classiclightweights website suggests the correct spoke to be using for this era is a 17/15 rather than modern 14/16 guage. I may have to compromise, as it seems really tricky to get the 17/15 :|

 

[Cefnbikie]

I do think your Lyotard platform pedals are great and I find this type of pedal very comfortable to ride. I have been using Lyotard Marcel Berthets since the 60s since I broke a bone in my foot and ordinary rat trap pedals were painful on long rides.

On the subject of spokes, I remember reading an article back in the 1970s by a wheel builder who mentioned that Campag hub flanges were drilled for 14g spokes, whereas many British hubs were drilled for 15g. It was stated that if 15g (or 15/17g) spokes were used with Campag hubs there was an increased risk of spoke breakage, as the bend in the spoke was insufficiently supported by the flange hole. On the other hand I think that putting modern 2mm/1.6mm (14/16g equiv) spokes into older British hubs could also stress the spoke at the bend.

At the time I had some wheels built with Campag hubs and 15/17g spokes, and when I rebuilt them I used 14/16g. But I continued using 15/17g spokes for my wheels that had Airlite hubs.

Back in the 60s and 70s I preferred ‘rustless’ spokes, although chrome spokes looked very nice until splits in the chrome due to the spoke tension caused rust to set in. I remember trying some stainless steel spokes in the 1970s, and they were very poor, with regular spoke breakage – I soon went back to rustless. However, I tried stainless steel spokes again in the 1990s and have have great reliability from stainless steel spokes since.

I would suggest that if one wanted a very accurate wheel build for a 60s or 70s bike, when using British hubs, then 15/17g ‘rustless’ or chrome spokes would be the choice.

I personally am not too bothered by absolute accuracy, and when I soon carry out a rebuild of some 27 x 1 1/4 wheels onto 1960s Campag hubs I shall be very happy using stainless steel 2mm/1.6mm spokes.

 

[Cefnbikie]

Double post

 

[randomdan]

Re:

I'm still trying to understand the physics of difference in hub drillings I must confess!

If the English made hubs tend to be drilled for 15SWG spoke (~1.8mm) and the Champags, continental and modern standard spoke is 14SWG (~2.0mm) that means a combo of old B&W hub and modern spoke would result in the spoke being more snug in the hub hole, and not having (for want of a better phrase) the freedom to wiggle around quite so much. Having measured the hub holes with verniers, they appear to measure 2.4-2.5mm - and this does seem to be no different to continental hubs.

Another factor is finding a enough 1950s or 60s that someone has squirreled away for 40 years is a real long shot, I expect there is also a very long list of wheel builders waiting to pluder that stock :roll:

So after much deliberation - I think I might try pushing my luck with modern stainless 2,0-1,5-2,0 spokes - I don't think I'll be the first or last.. but if anyone has experiences of this where it ended it catestrophic failure let me know, in the interests of me keeping my front teeth.

 

[Cefnbikie]

I see what you mean about finding enough 50s 60s spokes. I have looked online and the rustless spokes in 15/17g seem as rare as hens teeth. Only 14g, such as used on the more utility style of bike, seems to be available.

I have noticed that stainless steel DT Swiss Champion spokes are available in 1.8mm (15g), so that could be a possibility. However, it is very possible that you could build with 2.00/1.6mm and have no trouble at all with spoke breakages, especially with 32/40 spoked wheels. I think that lessening the possibility of spoke breakage on any wheel depends on a lot of factors, including the wheels having a higher spoke count, the rear wheel not being too dished, the wheels being stress relieved after building and the rider weight being not too great.

Seeing your Dunlop Special Lightweight rims brought back memories. I had similar sets of 32/40 27 x 1 1/4” rims, and used them on fixed-wheel bikes. Braking performance with them in the wet is not as good as with alloy rims, but the braking surface on my front rims was so rusty it gave a good surface for ordinary Weinmann brake pads to grip on! I also had steel rims on my Moulton, but the small wheels gave problem braking, and very poor braking in the wet – but wet braking was greatly improved by using leather brake blocks.

 

[randomdan]

I was reading the braking performance of chrome rims is not great, Having never ridden anything like this, with about 20+ years riding MTB (usually with very good traction and braking) I'tll probably catch me out at some point!

I'd never heard of such a thing as leather pads until you mentioned it - but now I've looked I see a few suggestions that these are actually best choice for steel rims, particularly in wet...- as most rubber compounds sold are aimed at use with alloy rims and really unsuitable .... Still learning over here...

I've looked into the options for ages, and passed on the champion, as I couldn't seem to get the right lengths sadly. I brought Sapim lasers in the end thinking the 2.0,1.5,2.0, against the original 1.8,1.4,1.8 rustless spokes seemed a reasonable compromise

I've put them up against the hub today, and I think I finally understand the issue that causes weakness. With relatively slim hub flanges of the older rims, the larger bend radius of the thicker guage means that the spoke elbow ends up slightly gapped away from the flange, rather than being flush against the flange as would be desirable. Spoke washers would almost certainly help correct for this, and are available, so I've ordered some up. Another learning curve...

 

[Muddy paw]

Theirs alot here that's new to me regarding spokes as i've never built a wheel up and i certainly have never heard of spoke washers before but they do make perfect sense to use them according to whats been said and i've never ridden a chromed rim bike with leather pads so i don't have a clue about their performance although the first bikes i ever road had chrome rims and getting the brakes to work well with rubber pads wasn't so bad in the dry weather but wet weather was a bit hit and miss and ccould be a bit scarey at times although the old fibrax brake blocks always seemed to work best from my experience ..

 

[randomdan]

Well Slow progress - here's a preview of the wheelset, it all went together rather nicely

I need to buy some tubes that fit.

 

[Muddy paw]

The wheels look great with the white walled tyres fitted and will look the business when on the bike .