Holdsworth Frame Numbers
- Thread starter dwscrimshaw
- Start date
dwscrimshaw
Retro Guru
Thanks for the photos, I think that helps. My initial reaction is to start again and take this at face value. Start with frame/model identification then look at the frame number. The frame feature are fact, the number is speculation at the end of the day and will have errors and anomalies.
The paint work looks fairly original and the decals are consistent with others in the database from the period. H Lloyd lists these as in use during the 70's and 80's. So can you recognise this as a Triath-Elan? With the history site temporarily down you will have to relay on forums and Google images.
The number is consistent with the post 85 era, although in the correct position it's split. We have other 6 digits numerals starting with 1 in the database, but not with a preceding letter. It could well be this is the first we have seen like this. We do have a number of frames that do not fit the common systems, some are earlier than yours and a bit suspect. The rest are similar and I see no real logic to them. To me the numbers start very high and could signify a clear break with the previous 6D numbers when Marlborough took over, there may also be some significance in the first two digits and the date, who knows. The last three numbers seem to be from the Falcon period and start with B and C Two of these have aero levers which would place then late 80's on wards.
As the 6D system seems very consistent and covered everything made by Holdsworth I am of the opinion your frame is post 85. On face value its a Triath-Elan and if this model finished before 85 for some reason it picked up an odd number. May be there was some early frames that picked up the new numbers, but I am inclined to think this is post 85 and is a variation of the other numbers starting with 1. I am inclined to drop the Trek idea on the basis that you have to explain the H in the number and establish a link with Holdsworth.
The paint work looks fairly original and the decals are consistent with others in the database from the period. H Lloyd lists these as in use during the 70's and 80's. So can you recognise this as a Triath-Elan? With the history site temporarily down you will have to relay on forums and Google images.
The number is consistent with the post 85 era, although in the correct position it's split. We have other 6 digits numerals starting with 1 in the database, but not with a preceding letter. It could well be this is the first we have seen like this. We do have a number of frames that do not fit the common systems, some are earlier than yours and a bit suspect. The rest are similar and I see no real logic to them. To me the numbers start very high and could signify a clear break with the previous 6D numbers when Marlborough took over, there may also be some significance in the first two digits and the date, who knows. The last three numbers seem to be from the Falcon period and start with B and C Two of these have aero levers which would place then late 80's on wards.
As the 6D system seems very consistent and covered everything made by Holdsworth I am of the opinion your frame is post 85. On face value its a Triath-Elan and if this model finished before 85 for some reason it picked up an odd number. May be there was some early frames that picked up the new numbers, but I am inclined to think this is post 85 and is a variation of the other numbers starting with 1. I am inclined to drop the Trek idea on the basis that you have to explain the H in the number and establish a link with Holdsworth.
dwscrimshaw
Retro Guru
Just seen the additional pics. Trying to find out when that Holdsworth foil Decal was used is going to help. I can say I have seen that before and its not on the Lloyd site. Could be from the post 85 era maybe? I think Lloyd stop at around that time, you might find someone else does Holdsworth decal that include this to help with dating?
I think this is a 1985 Holdsworth Triathelan (not VS) with a Marlboro number.
Quote from Kilgariff, "Marlboro had a presence at Oakfield Rd since pre Easter 1985, but they bought Holdsworthy cNov 1985, and production quickly transferred to Darlaston in the West Midlands."
1985 catalogue from VCC shows Triathelan with similar paint, decals and kit (on quick look chainset different)
http://veterancycleclublibrary.org.uk/l ... H&items=96
Here is 1985 catalogue:
http://veterancycleclublibrary.org.uk/n ... %20Library).pdf
Doug
Quote from Kilgariff, "Marlboro had a presence at Oakfield Rd since pre Easter 1985, but they bought Holdsworthy cNov 1985, and production quickly transferred to Darlaston in the West Midlands."
1985 catalogue from VCC shows Triathelan with similar paint, decals and kit (on quick look chainset different)
http://veterancycleclublibrary.org.uk/l ... H&items=96
Here is 1985 catalogue:
http://veterancycleclublibrary.org.uk/n ... %20Library).pdf
Doug
dwscrimshaw
Retro Guru
CBguy":1ciumx41 said:
Yes, and I think it not unreasonable to see 1984 dated equipment on this either.
baronsouthside
Old School Hero
Re:
Thanks for reply. After my initial excitement of my Trek comments I've reigned in a bit. It seems a bit far fetch to have an American builder supply frames but the coincidence of Treks numbering system having a 1984 531cs bike with that number was almost too good to be true. I still await a reply but its a big American vintage bike show this weekend so he's probably busy with that. Fully understand your view that it is a post 85 bike even though the components I have that i believe to be original are '84.
There is a '84 thread here that shows similar paint even down to the way it is cracking and also shows the silver seat tube decal, but sadly no serial number.
https://www.lfgss.com/conversations/224745/
By 1986, the frame had change to 531c, paint scheme changes and lugs are different.
viewtopic.php?f=22&t=194690
I kinda thought that this chance in spec would coincide with the Falcon era move of factories which was late 85 if i remember from the history site that is down so i thought i was on safe ground buying this paint scheme.
Its a real shame the history site is down just now as i used it to try to date before buying. I did manage to get a couple of scree grabs. One of the 85 spec which is basically what i have and the other of the 6 digit numbering system. So basic at the moment without any more proof i have a post 073200 SN Falcon era '85 Triath-Elan but before the '86 spec change. Bugger. I suppose it narrows it down. Thanks for your help.
Thanks for reply. After my initial excitement of my Trek comments I've reigned in a bit. It seems a bit far fetch to have an American builder supply frames but the coincidence of Treks numbering system having a 1984 531cs bike with that number was almost too good to be true. I still await a reply but its a big American vintage bike show this weekend so he's probably busy with that. Fully understand your view that it is a post 85 bike even though the components I have that i believe to be original are '84.
There is a '84 thread here that shows similar paint even down to the way it is cracking and also shows the silver seat tube decal, but sadly no serial number.
https://www.lfgss.com/conversations/224745/
By 1986, the frame had change to 531c, paint scheme changes and lugs are different.
viewtopic.php?f=22&t=194690
I kinda thought that this chance in spec would coincide with the Falcon era move of factories which was late 85 if i remember from the history site that is down so i thought i was on safe ground buying this paint scheme.
Its a real shame the history site is down just now as i used it to try to date before buying. I did manage to get a couple of scree grabs. One of the 85 spec which is basically what i have and the other of the 6 digit numbering system. So basic at the moment without any more proof i have a post 073200 SN Falcon era '85 Triath-Elan but before the '86 spec change. Bugger. I suppose it narrows it down. Thanks for your help.
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dwscrimshaw
Retro Guru
Yes, I wouldn’t worry too much about the date on the components, to be a year or so early with potential stock transfers between locations etc. would not be unreasonable. If you see latter dated components that would indicate a replacement.
Also that last number in 85, 073200, is theoretical based on assumed production levels and start number to get the prediction graphs looking tidy. The reality is the highest number seen to date is 069803.
One other thing I should perhaps look into relating to the post 6D numbers is what Marlborough and Falcon used for numbers, might give some in site to the post 85 Holdsworth numbers.
Also that last number in 85, 073200, is theoretical based on assumed production levels and start number to get the prediction graphs looking tidy. The reality is the highest number seen to date is 069803.
One other thing I should perhaps look into relating to the post 6D numbers is what Marlborough and Falcon used for numbers, might give some in site to the post 85 Holdsworth numbers.
baronsouthside
Old School Hero
Yeah. Ill keep going just out of personal interest now, the thing is I've already got a '88 Edinburgh Cooperative 12 speed continental which is a rebadged falcon in much better condition and i ride it weekly.
viewtopic.php?f=23&t=372482
and i wasn't wanting another one so I've kinda gone flat on the bike. I may just polish it and move it on. The only thing at the moment is the 531cs frameset. Ive never had one so ill see how it rides. Thanks again for your help. jonny
viewtopic.php?f=23&t=372482
and i wasn't wanting another one so I've kinda gone flat on the bike. I may just polish it and move it on. The only thing at the moment is the 531cs frameset. Ive never had one so ill see how it rides. Thanks again for your help. jonny
Re:
Baronsouthside,
Well, 1985 VCC catalogue clearly shows your Ttiathelan. I feel it has to be a Marlboro Holdsworth. FYI Falcon did not take over Holdsworth marque until 1987.
Kilgariff, "After the 1987 takeover by Falcon Cycles Ltd (an Elswick PLC Company), they offered Holdsworth "Racers", Claud Butler Tourers (neglecting MTBs) and Falcon "Sports Cycles"...
(I have the Kilgariff Models page pdf'd on my desktop.)
Doug
Baronsouthside,
Well, 1985 VCC catalogue clearly shows your Ttiathelan. I feel it has to be a Marlboro Holdsworth. FYI Falcon did not take over Holdsworth marque until 1987.
Kilgariff, "After the 1987 takeover by Falcon Cycles Ltd (an Elswick PLC Company), they offered Holdsworth "Racers", Claud Butler Tourers (neglecting MTBs) and Falcon "Sports Cycles"...
(I have the Kilgariff Models page pdf'd on my desktop.)
Doug
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