Downland Cycles advanced bike mechanic course, update 12/7/15
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Day 6!
disc brake day 2, dot 4 and dot 5.1 fluid disc brakes, i was sort of dreading part of this day because i knew Avid brakes were on the list. we started first with Hope tech X2 brakes, which is useful for me as i have a pair of them on my ST4 and they needed work. we learnt the best ways to set up the caliper over the disc and how to centralise the pistons/pads to get the best performance, after this we then learnt the bleeding procedure which was the same as the first (and most often used) shimano system of bleeding, fill the master cyclinder and open close the bleed nipple while pulling the brake lever. there were some other little tips that also make a difference that Hope recommend that differ to other brands though.
tech x2 lever
P1130396 by Dr. Branom, on Flickr
tech x2 caliper
P1130397 by Dr. Branom, on Flickr
hope bleed kit, syringe, 2 bits of pipe and an 8mm spanner
P1130399 by Dr. Branom, on Flickr
after Hope brakes we moved on to my dreaded Avids, i have always hated these brakes, every time i have seen anybody work on them it has been with alot of swearing and frustration! as a result i have never owned a set and i have never recommended anyone buying a set of them, we initially set them up on our fork/bar assemblies and got the alignment sorted, then proceeded to bleeding, this brake was a "juicy" it has a specific bleeding procedure that is different to other brands where you bleed the caliper then hose then lever, once this was done the brake felt better than any avid brake i have previously felt, we then moved on to the Avid elixr brake, similar in looks but again a specific bleeding procedure, with this one you bleed the hose first then the caliper then the lever, which seems like a small difference but it makes a big difference to the performance and feel of the brake. again it felt great, i would say that both felt better than any similar brake i'd felt in a shop before.
avid bleed kit, syringe times 2!
P1130398 by Dr. Branom, on Flickr
avid juicy brake lever
P1130400 by Dr. Branom, on Flickr
avid juicy caliper
P1130401 by Dr. Branom, on Flickr
once we mastered those brakes it was the end of the training day although Bryan did show us one more thing, a strip and rebuild of a campagnolo record ergolever which had been delivered by post earlier that day, it was a used broken part in for rebuild, it was surprising how quick he stripped repaired and rebuilt it but then he's been doing it a long time.
after this we then started working on our own stuff, i needed to rebuild the brakes on my ST4, including replacing the hose, also i wanted to service the fox rp23 shock, i had already serviced the reba forks on this bike aswel so by the time i'd finished the whole bike was fully stripped and rebuilt, perfect for Morzine in August!
hope bleeding
P1130402 by Dr. Branom, on Flickr
bubbles bubbles everywhere!
P1130403 by Dr. Branom, on Flickr
fox rp23, never been serviced in 4 years! although kept clean and lubed at the external seal, i was dreading opening this
P1130404 by Dr. Branom, on Flickr
once opened i was surprised to only see a little bit of oil gone murky, so not bad at all
P1130405 by Dr. Branom, on Flickr
P1130406 by Dr. Branom, on Flickr
4 years of gunk, not too bad
P1130411 by Dr. Branom, on Flickr
inside the air can
P1130408 by Dr. Branom, on Flickr
the seal kit
P1130412 by Dr. Branom, on Flickr
the piston seal kit, new and old for comparison
P1130413 by Dr. Branom, on Flickr
the air can seal kit and wiper seal
P1130414 by Dr. Branom, on Flickr
new seals fitted, lube with fox fluid
P1130415 by Dr. Branom, on Flickr
on goes the can
P1130416 by Dr. Branom, on Flickr
just needs air now, the can only does up hand tight, you need hardly any tools to service this!
P1130417 by Dr. Branom, on Flickr
knowing what i know now about fox shocks i am embarrassed to not have known how to do this!
the ST4 is now running sweet!
after this we then spent some time finding out the answers to more of our workbook questions, some are really in depth,
for example:-
what are the 2 differences between campagnolo super record and campagnolo record ultra torque crankset. what are the implications if you have not read the technical manual before removing the crankset.
the answer for those that are curious:- super record has a titanium axle with a left hand threaded titanium bolt, if you didn't know that (or check) you could attempt to undo the crank bolt anti clockwise and then inadvertently over torque and snap the bolt head in the axle, which on super record would cost you £90 for a replacement bolt! also the bearings are ceramic and run on oil not grease.
one thing i have taken away from this course is DO THINGS THE RIGHT WAY AND READ THE INSTRUCTIONS, this makes a huge difference to the outcome of the job you are doing.
Day 6!
disc brake day 2, dot 4 and dot 5.1 fluid disc brakes, i was sort of dreading part of this day because i knew Avid brakes were on the list. we started first with Hope tech X2 brakes, which is useful for me as i have a pair of them on my ST4 and they needed work. we learnt the best ways to set up the caliper over the disc and how to centralise the pistons/pads to get the best performance, after this we then learnt the bleeding procedure which was the same as the first (and most often used) shimano system of bleeding, fill the master cyclinder and open close the bleed nipple while pulling the brake lever. there were some other little tips that also make a difference that Hope recommend that differ to other brands though.
tech x2 lever
P1130396 by Dr. Branom, on Flickr
tech x2 caliper
P1130397 by Dr. Branom, on Flickr
hope bleed kit, syringe, 2 bits of pipe and an 8mm spanner
P1130399 by Dr. Branom, on Flickr
after Hope brakes we moved on to my dreaded Avids, i have always hated these brakes, every time i have seen anybody work on them it has been with alot of swearing and frustration! as a result i have never owned a set and i have never recommended anyone buying a set of them, we initially set them up on our fork/bar assemblies and got the alignment sorted, then proceeded to bleeding, this brake was a "juicy" it has a specific bleeding procedure that is different to other brands where you bleed the caliper then hose then lever, once this was done the brake felt better than any avid brake i have previously felt, we then moved on to the Avid elixr brake, similar in looks but again a specific bleeding procedure, with this one you bleed the hose first then the caliper then the lever, which seems like a small difference but it makes a big difference to the performance and feel of the brake. again it felt great, i would say that both felt better than any similar brake i'd felt in a shop before.
avid bleed kit, syringe times 2!
P1130398 by Dr. Branom, on Flickr
avid juicy brake lever
P1130400 by Dr. Branom, on Flickr
avid juicy caliper
P1130401 by Dr. Branom, on Flickr
once we mastered those brakes it was the end of the training day although Bryan did show us one more thing, a strip and rebuild of a campagnolo record ergolever which had been delivered by post earlier that day, it was a used broken part in for rebuild, it was surprising how quick he stripped repaired and rebuilt it but then he's been doing it a long time.
after this we then started working on our own stuff, i needed to rebuild the brakes on my ST4, including replacing the hose, also i wanted to service the fox rp23 shock, i had already serviced the reba forks on this bike aswel so by the time i'd finished the whole bike was fully stripped and rebuilt, perfect for Morzine in August!
hope bleeding
P1130402 by Dr. Branom, on Flickr
bubbles bubbles everywhere!
P1130403 by Dr. Branom, on Flickr
fox rp23, never been serviced in 4 years! although kept clean and lubed at the external seal, i was dreading opening this
P1130404 by Dr. Branom, on Flickr
once opened i was surprised to only see a little bit of oil gone murky, so not bad at all
P1130405 by Dr. Branom, on Flickr
P1130406 by Dr. Branom, on Flickr
4 years of gunk, not too bad
P1130411 by Dr. Branom, on Flickr
inside the air can
P1130408 by Dr. Branom, on Flickr
the seal kit
P1130412 by Dr. Branom, on Flickr
the piston seal kit, new and old for comparison
P1130413 by Dr. Branom, on Flickr
the air can seal kit and wiper seal
P1130414 by Dr. Branom, on Flickr
new seals fitted, lube with fox fluid
P1130415 by Dr. Branom, on Flickr
on goes the can
P1130416 by Dr. Branom, on Flickr
just needs air now, the can only does up hand tight, you need hardly any tools to service this!
P1130417 by Dr. Branom, on Flickr
knowing what i know now about fox shocks i am embarrassed to not have known how to do this!
the ST4 is now running sweet!
after this we then spent some time finding out the answers to more of our workbook questions, some are really in depth,
for example:-
what are the 2 differences between campagnolo super record and campagnolo record ultra torque crankset. what are the implications if you have not read the technical manual before removing the crankset.
the answer for those that are curious:- super record has a titanium axle with a left hand threaded titanium bolt, if you didn't know that (or check) you could attempt to undo the crank bolt anti clockwise and then inadvertently over torque and snap the bolt head in the axle, which on super record would cost you £90 for a replacement bolt! also the bearings are ceramic and run on oil not grease.
one thing i have taken away from this course is DO THINGS THE RIGHT WAY AND READ THE INSTRUCTIONS, this makes a huge difference to the outcome of the job you are doing.
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so today was my last day, i didn't get any pictures but i'll go through what we worked on.
it sounds silly but we stripped and rebuilt some shimano tiagra hubs, "simple!" you may say! and i would have agreed but then i learnt why we were doing this. setting up the cones on a normal ball bearing hub is not quite what i thought, i have always adjusted the hub so that there was no play in the hub, then put it in the bike and thought, yep! that's done! turns out all these years i had been slightly wrong (read the manuals if you don't believe me!) basically the way to do it is to leave a tiny bit of play in the hub and i do mean tiny, when this is done the wheel is replaced in the bike, when you do up the quick release skewer the play is then gone because the QR compresses everything slightly taking the play out of the wheel bearings! not doing this can be as bad as leaving play in the bearings as both can cause wear in the hub bearing tracks.
we also looked at the quality of bearings in the hubs themselves, what they are made of and what bearings can go in a particular hub, don't ever buy ceramic ball bearings for your ultegra hubs for example, you'll kill the hub. also if you have campagnolo super record cranks that come with ceramic bearings, don't grease them as you'll remove all the benefits of having ceramic bearings because they are designed to run on oil. this is all knowledge gained that i previously had no idea of and i worked in the trade for 12 years with no clue of this type of stuff.
after lunch we then moved onto stripping and servicing high end wheels like mavic ksyrium wheels and fulcrum etc, Bryan went through how to strip them and where to find the spares including their part codes and how to identify year models etc.
we also had a sort of conclusion interview where Bryan and Julie went through with each student anything they thought was holding us back or improvements we could make, i was told that i tend to rush jobs a bit which is probably true and as a result i should take a breath and concentrate more. the idea is that it's advice from observation as opposed to a criticism.
All in all i completely recommend doing a course like this, even if you think you know everything about bikes and servicing i am 100% sure you will come away from the course a better more knowledgable mechanic.
Bryan, Martin and Julie were great to deal with in all aspects from start to finish and i hope that next year if i can afford it i'll go back and do the frame building course that Makster did.
i will add a bit more to this thread though in the coming days as now that i am home i will be doing some more servicing on stuff i have here, my mavic cosmic wheels for example, they need a good looking at as will my rockshox sektor forks prior to my morzine trip, i also have a set of fox forks and shock to do for a friend, i had taken them to do them at Downland but didn't get round to it.
while i remember, there are a few other benefits to doing the course:-
you can ask for a refresh course at any time for free, so if you forget stuff because you haven't done it in ages you can pop back when they run that subject for a recap.
you can buy tools at a bit of a discount, from a single tool to the full Park tool kit at £5000, Bryan will advise you on anything from a starter kit to what would be expected for a new shop set up.
also, they are there on the end of the phone for advice in the future.
i hope this thread has been helpful to some of you, the course definitely was to me!
so today was my last day, i didn't get any pictures but i'll go through what we worked on.
it sounds silly but we stripped and rebuilt some shimano tiagra hubs, "simple!" you may say! and i would have agreed but then i learnt why we were doing this. setting up the cones on a normal ball bearing hub is not quite what i thought, i have always adjusted the hub so that there was no play in the hub, then put it in the bike and thought, yep! that's done! turns out all these years i had been slightly wrong (read the manuals if you don't believe me!) basically the way to do it is to leave a tiny bit of play in the hub and i do mean tiny, when this is done the wheel is replaced in the bike, when you do up the quick release skewer the play is then gone because the QR compresses everything slightly taking the play out of the wheel bearings! not doing this can be as bad as leaving play in the bearings as both can cause wear in the hub bearing tracks.
we also looked at the quality of bearings in the hubs themselves, what they are made of and what bearings can go in a particular hub, don't ever buy ceramic ball bearings for your ultegra hubs for example, you'll kill the hub. also if you have campagnolo super record cranks that come with ceramic bearings, don't grease them as you'll remove all the benefits of having ceramic bearings because they are designed to run on oil. this is all knowledge gained that i previously had no idea of and i worked in the trade for 12 years with no clue of this type of stuff.
after lunch we then moved onto stripping and servicing high end wheels like mavic ksyrium wheels and fulcrum etc, Bryan went through how to strip them and where to find the spares including their part codes and how to identify year models etc.
we also had a sort of conclusion interview where Bryan and Julie went through with each student anything they thought was holding us back or improvements we could make, i was told that i tend to rush jobs a bit which is probably true and as a result i should take a breath and concentrate more. the idea is that it's advice from observation as opposed to a criticism.
All in all i completely recommend doing a course like this, even if you think you know everything about bikes and servicing i am 100% sure you will come away from the course a better more knowledgable mechanic.
Bryan, Martin and Julie were great to deal with in all aspects from start to finish and i hope that next year if i can afford it i'll go back and do the frame building course that Makster did.
i will add a bit more to this thread though in the coming days as now that i am home i will be doing some more servicing on stuff i have here, my mavic cosmic wheels for example, they need a good looking at as will my rockshox sektor forks prior to my morzine trip, i also have a set of fox forks and shock to do for a friend, i had taken them to do them at Downland but didn't get round to it.
while i remember, there are a few other benefits to doing the course:-
you can ask for a refresh course at any time for free, so if you forget stuff because you haven't done it in ages you can pop back when they run that subject for a recap.
you can buy tools at a bit of a discount, from a single tool to the full Park tool kit at £5000, Bryan will advise you on anything from a starter kit to what would be expected for a new shop set up.
also, they are there on the end of the phone for advice in the future.
i hope this thread has been helpful to some of you, the course definitely was to me!
highlandsflyer
Retro Wizard
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Re: Downland Cycles advanced bike mechanic course
Probably the best thread I have seen on here along with Pat's daily ride thread!
Probably the best thread I have seen on here along with Pat's daily ride thread!
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Re: Downland Cycles advanced bike mechanic course
Loved it. Thanks for sharing.
Loved it. Thanks for sharing.
kenaltobelli
Retrobike Rider
Re:
great thread thanks for putting this up;
of no use to me as if i cant fix it with a hammer it goes to a shop :facepalm:
no i am not safe to be let lose with spanners
great thread thanks for putting this up;
of no use to me as if i cant fix it with a hammer it goes to a shop :facepalm:
no i am not safe to be let lose with spanners
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