Retrobike Forum Index

It is currently Wed Dec 02, 2020 1:37 pm

* Login   * Register * Search  * FAQ



Post new topic This topic is locked, you cannot edit posts or make further replies.  [ 290 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7 ... 29  Next
Author Message
 Post subject: Re:
PostPosted: Sun Sep 20, 2020 12:52 pm 
Retro Guru
User avatar

Joined: Mon Sep 24, 2012 9:10 pm
Posts: 1243
Quote:
where it looks like Raleigh have royally screwed up on the geometry so every single frame will have a sloping top tube!!


I guess it could be just the '56's?

Someone with a horse in this race will hopefully know whether or not the geometry is constant across the size range? It wouldn't have been, forty years back, that's for sure..


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Re:
PostPosted: Sun Sep 20, 2020 3:30 pm 
r.B.o.T.M. & P.o.T.M. Winner
r.B.o.T.M. & P.o.T.M. Winner
User avatar

Joined: Thu Nov 22, 2007 10:51 am
Posts: 2770
Location: Camel Land
torqueless wrote:
Quote:
where it looks like Raleigh have royally screwed up on the geometry so every single frame will have a sloping top tube!!


I guess it could be just the '56's?

Someone with a horse in this race will hopefully know whether or not the geometry is constant across the size range? It wouldn't have been, forty years back, that's for sure..


We need someone other than a size 56 to see if they have a sloping top tube. As I said I’ve a 59 but won’t get to touch it until next year...


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Sep 21, 2020 4:55 pm 
Newbie

Joined: Thu Sep 20, 2012 6:04 pm
Posts: 9
Location: wakefield
Dear fellow retro bikers, I thought I would add a few comments regarding the 40th Anniversary TI Raleigh replica . Irt first came to my attention on the Classic Rendezvous website . To gauge how accurate it was I looked at the Raleigh webpage which can only tell my glasses wearing eyes so much. The gentleman from Newcastle's YouTube video highlighted the sloping top tube which I had not noticed first time round but which I could see upon revisiting the Raleigh web page and looking at the first side on picture. Also the geometry chart features a sloping top tube so it is my guess Raleigh and their Taiwanese partners manufactured these frames intentionally this way . Raleigh did not mention the tube sloped but you can see it.
The frame was constructed and painted in Taiwan . The frame's lugs and fork crown are Taiwanese Long Chen Items readily available. looking at the rear drop outs they look to be laser cut out of a constant thickness of material not like the commonly used Campagnolo 1010 forged drop outs and are very crudely finished. Front fork ends have "lawyers lips" attached which the Ti Raleigh team mechanics would have had no time for and would have received the grinder/file treatment. On the top tube the divers helmet cable guides are a nod to authenticity .
Originally Raleigh used European sourced frame building material such as Reynolds, Prugnat, RGF , Cinelli and Campagnolo . Most of these makers are gone or no longer make frame building components . The outlay cost (design and moulding development ) for a casting house to make replicas of the original lugs fork crown and BB shell would have been excessive for a relatively small 250 frame production run.
Originalshinkicker has forgotten more about Raleigh SBDU than I will ever know , I can only give my opinion regarding companies attempts to make replicas. Something is lost when design and manufacturing is not continuous under one roof . In the last few years Bianchi bicycles who once had an Italian equivalent of SBDU the Reparto Corsa brought out a replica to celebrate the L'Eroica event . It was made in Taiwan and didn't get it right in similar ways that the 40th Raleigh did not.
Tommasini bicycles of Italy brought out a replica of their popular Super Prestige model that was originally marketed in 1985. I have a picture of the Tommasini workshop in 1983 out of five people making frames three were still there in 2018 . All their manufacturing and painting is done in house and part of the factory is a museum which has plenty of reference points for older models . Last October during a visit one of Irio Tommasini's daughters was giving a tour to fellow Italians . When they started this replica project Tommasini went to their local casting house and had the original lugs , crowns and BB shells made and also had Columbus make SLX tube and had access to the original style forged drop outs. All the original ingredients and workers were available so a decent replica was made . Even the rear drop outs were hand filed to a taper like thirty five years ago . When I was 16 in 1985 Tommasini was too. flashy or expensive and British made frames were prevalent so that's what I had but in 2018 I got a second chance at a 1985 Tommasini.
Taiwan probably has the most in quality/quantity of skilled frame builders and manufacturers so I am not knocking the Taiwanese , they did what Raleigh asked of them. The accuracy of the Raleigh replica depended on how passionate/knowledgeable the HQ staff were and on the cost. It is up to the Individual to decide if the 40th appeals to them. I would say it is very hard to replicate a design made forty years ago when the Industry has changed so much , kind regards Kermisking.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Sep 22, 2020 1:48 am 
r.B.o.T.M. & P.o.T.M. Winner
r.B.o.T.M. & P.o.T.M. Winner
User avatar

Joined: Thu Nov 22, 2007 10:51 am
Posts: 2770
Location: Camel Land
Doesn’t seem to be a sloping tube on this video
https://youtu.be/C44ujz3nm-M


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Sep 22, 2020 8:44 am 
Retro Guru

Joined: Sun Jun 10, 2012 9:49 am
Posts: 471
Location: Hampshire
Exactly, its hardly noticeable out on the road and will make no difference to the handling of the machine. Maybe the fork tubes are slightly longer to allow the use of bigger tyres, probably up to 28mm give greater comfort on such events as the Eroica. This is pretty obvious when you look at both the front and rear calipers, the brake blocks are at the bottom of the slots. Extra weight in the fork could be attributed to longer fork tubes that have to fit into a deeper crown plus the extra ride height. In the first pictures I saw, from Road CC I think, it was obvious the toptube is slightly sloping and on the Raleigh sizing chart but I think it is fine, this is not a copy its a modern interpretation of a classic. :)

Raleigh said "Joop's bike was a custom build with very specific tubing lengths to suit Joop while riding the TDF, and while we have kept it as close as possible, we have had to make small and minor changes to the geometry to make this version a bit more suited to the 'everyday' rider"


Attachments:
image-2.jpg
image-2.jpg [ 114.8 KiB | Viewed 336 times ]
Zoetemelk-RaleighTi__2.jpg
Zoetemelk-RaleighTi__2.jpg [ 307.52 KiB | Viewed 336 times ]
raleigh-history-1980-joop-zoetemelk-tour-de-france.jpg
raleigh-history-1980-joop-zoetemelk-tour-de-france.jpg [ 85.23 KiB | Viewed 336 times ]


Last edited by vcballbat on Sun Oct 11, 2020 7:32 am, edited 1 time in total.
Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re:
PostPosted: Tue Sep 22, 2020 12:04 pm 
Retro Guru
User avatar

Joined: Mon Sep 24, 2012 9:10 pm
Posts: 1243
Quote:
Doesn’t seem to be a sloping tube on this video

There clearly is.. 1m44s.

These marketing bods are so diplomatic, aren't they?
"Joop's bike was a custom build with very specific tubing lengths to suit Joop while riding the TDF, and while we have kept it as close as possible, we have had to make small and minor changes to the geometry to make this version a bit more suited to the 'everyday' rider"
... Yeah, because hardly any of the people who are gonna buy this machine would be able to reach the drops unless we did.

To be fair, I think the marketing deliberately avoids the word 'replica' or any synonym thereof..


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Sep 22, 2020 1:49 pm 
r.B.o.T.M. & P.o.T.M. Winner
r.B.o.T.M. & P.o.T.M. Winner
User avatar

Joined: Thu Nov 22, 2007 10:51 am
Posts: 2770
Location: Camel Land
When calculating through the geometry given on there site yes there is a definite sloping top tube which is a shame but you can live with it I guess.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re:
PostPosted: Tue Sep 22, 2020 2:24 pm 
Retro Guru

Joined: Sun Jun 10, 2012 9:49 am
Posts: 471
Location: Hampshire
And aero seatpost's look crap when they ain't stuck out enough :lol:


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Re:
PostPosted: Tue Sep 22, 2020 3:25 pm 
r.B.o.T.M. & P.o.T.M. Winner
r.B.o.T.M. & P.o.T.M. Winner
User avatar

Joined: Thu Nov 22, 2007 10:51 am
Posts: 2770
Location: Camel Land
vcballbat wrote:
And aero seatpost's look crap when they ain't stuck out enough :lol:


My Aero seatpost

Image


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Sep 23, 2020 6:18 pm 
rBoTM Winner
rBoTM Winner
User avatar

Joined: Sat Apr 14, 2012 12:03 am
Posts: 591
Location: Newcastle upon Tyne
These are the issues with the anniversary bike

1. The top tube slops by 15mm - my frame stands at 81.5cm at the head lug to the level ground. the frame measures 80cm at the seat lug to the level ground - same rims, same tyres, same pressure

2. The front brake drop - centre of bolt to centre of rim is 50mm but it is 45mm on the rear. If they did the extra clearance for bigger tyres then this should have been done front and back? There is no reason to only do this on the front? If you increase fork blade length for extra clearance then head tubes are shortened and vice versa. Same applied with Track frames where there is no brake clearance, blades are shorter and head tubes are therefore longer.

3. The head tube measurement on my 56cm anniversary frame is 143mm - that is 10mm longer than all my equivalent SB frames.

4. The longer head tube (10mm) and additional brake drop (5mm) have created an additional 15mm at the front of the bike. Coincidentally the same measurement of slope on my top tube.

5. Joop's original geometry has a seat tube of 56cm centre to centre. Raleigh say that they have created frames based around Joop's geometry. Obviously they aren't going to go into the individual millimetres on tube lengths and fractions of a degree on angles. So his top tube was 556 and they have done 560, fair enough. His head and seat angles have also been rounded up/down. But the big mistake they have made is that they have taken the 56cm centre to centre measurement and made it 56cm centre to top instead. They've interpreted the original geometry (the seat tube length) incorrectly.

Raleigh UK have made so many claims about this bike, about following the original spec and geometry and publishing quotes like...

"Our anniversary TI Raleigh is based on the original geometry chart from Joop's 56cm tour winning bike, developed with absolute precision, following the specs as closely as possible and the dimensions too"

Unfortunately, Raleigh UK have really made a mess of this frame - they have got the basics wrong


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic This topic is locked, you cannot edit posts or make further replies.  [ 290 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7 ... 29  Next

All times are UTC [ DST ]


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: glpinxit and 48 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  

About Us

Follow Retrobike

Other cool stuff

All content © 2005-2015 Retrobike unless otherwise stated.
Cookies Policy.
bikedeals - the best bike deals in one place
FatCOGS - Fat Chance Owner's Group

Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group