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 Post subject: Re:
PostPosted: Tue Aug 15, 2017 8:04 pm 
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Joined: Mon Sep 24, 2012 9:10 pm
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The frame had the first of two BB shell replacements (don't ask!) in the mid or late '90s, so there is no number there since then. As I remember it it was across the shell like that, yes. But there were two brazed on gear tunnels under there too, so it must have been in a position outside of that area. It was small stamps, without serifs iirc. At any rate the steerer number remains. I think the frame had been resprayed and updated with the under bracket stuff shortly before I got it. Fwiw it also has the 'Flyer' style top eyes like Dave's track frame. I call that 'Bering Straits'.. (on my frame there is a bare mm between the points)


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 15, 2017 11:05 pm 
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Location: Colchester, Essex
Yes, I guess trying to fit these 4D numbers in anywhere else would give us other issues to explain. Being built outside the shop would be a good explanation. Its odd though how the numbers fall out. If the shop numbers do not have a zero between the date and the numbers less than 100 the only other 4D number other than these in the 70's is 6776. With a growing number of shop frames there are no 4D number for other years? Outside of the shop builds could explain the 70's 4D if less than 100 were built, seems reasonable. but why are we finding only 100+ numbers in every year other than 67?

Again in 74 the last three digits are also very high, I know there is only two, but they are both higher than the last 69... number. Could the system have restarted in 74 for one year where they left off on 69? Yet again all highly speculative (or suspicious) only more numbers will tell.

Just to put all this into perspective, although we have 462 numbers we only have less than half of one % of the potential total frames built. Even if I have over estimated the total by double the amount this is not even 1%. statistically I doubt if anyone would take you seriously. That said where we have good documentary evidence, the Green dots, this improves things for building the prediction, but for dealing with the issues above we are back at less than 1%. (personally I think it should be mandatory to display the frame number in an e-bay add, that would help a lot - i wish!)


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 16, 2017 12:08 am 
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Joined: Mon Dec 08, 2014 9:32 pm
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Location: Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada
[quote="dwscrimshaw"]...."Again in 74 the last three digits are also very high, I know there is only two, but they are both higher than the last 69... number. Could the system have restarted in 74 for one year where they left off on 69? Yet again all highly speculative (or suspicious) only more numbers will tell"...

Dave
Same thought re 74 numbers also occurred to myself. As you say, time will tell... hopefully.
Doug


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 17, 2017 4:39 pm 
Old School Grand Master
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Joined: Fri Oct 14, 2011 8:41 pm
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Location: Cumbria
Pulled out the forks of my "cronometro" to check the number, its the same as the frame but different font.

Image

Peeled off the Roy Thame sticker off the seat tube and sanded to see if there is anything underneath. The paint has no clear coat and is very soft / thin (white undercoat), sort of reminds me of sanding Tamaya acrylic paint on my models BITD. Not professional respray IMHO so still convinced its a Cronometro and not a Roy Thame.


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 Post subject: Re:
PostPosted: Thu Aug 17, 2017 6:07 pm 
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Yeah my steerer number is like that. Same font, up the front of the steerer from the crown.

Was there not a "Roy Thame Cronometro"? i.e. when the shop was obliged to stop using "Holdsworth" they could still use shop model names which were never common to both shop and factory anyway?
..Or did the shop go all "new broom" and change all their model names at the same time?


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 17, 2017 6:41 pm 
Old School Hero

Joined: Mon Dec 08, 2014 9:32 pm
Posts: 184
Location: Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada
Yes,

Although, ad said to be from International Cycle Sport July 1977 only lists Cronometro Ultralite.
Attachment:
2724394110_499cfc3d78_o.jpg
2724394110_499cfc3d78_o.jpg [ 25.89 KiB | Viewed 667 times ]

WF Holdsworth Catalogue from "70's":
http://threespeedhub.com/wp-content/upl ... 70s-UK.pdf
Catalog also shows a lugged TT.


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 17, 2017 7:08 pm 
Old School Grand Master
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Joined: Fri Oct 14, 2011 8:41 pm
Posts: 9813
Location: Cumbria
I thought that the Roy Thame name didn't appear on frames until 1975. This makes me think that my likely 1969 frame was originally a Holdsworth.


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 17, 2017 7:51 pm 
Old School Hero

Joined: Mon Dec 08, 2014 9:32 pm
Posts: 184
Location: Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada
Midlife

Yes, Roy Thame branded frames have been thought and examples point to 1975 as year of initiation. This is year Holdsworthy declared that no further shop built frames be branded Holdsworth. The shop did continue to sell factory Holdsworths though. Ad and catalog are both post 1975.

However the fact that your '69" c.1973 frame (according to Scrimshaw's prediction) is at present dressed up as a Roy Thame and the new fact that there is now a second Roy Thame frame (a track) with same number plus an A has to make one wonder re possibility of some frames being branded Roy Thames prior to 1975 rather than being repainted later in Thame colors. As said before we will not know until and only if someone surfaces with documentation of an ad or a frame purchased as a Thame prior to 1975. In my mind waters have become a tad muddied, Jus' sayin'! Still possible both these "69" frames were repainted as Roy Thames. Time will tell.

Doug


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 Post subject: Re: Re:
PostPosted: Thu Aug 17, 2017 7:53 pm 
Old School Hero

Joined: Mon Dec 08, 2014 9:32 pm
Posts: 184
Location: Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada
[quote="torqueless"]Yeah my steerer number is like that. Same font, up the front of the steerer from the crown.

Torqueless,
Wonder which frame you might be referring to?
Doug


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 17, 2017 7:59 pm 
Old School Grand Master
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Joined: Fri Oct 14, 2011 8:41 pm
Posts: 9813
Location: Cumbria
Hi Doug

Have I misread his table from the frame number thread, I thought my number was 1969 and not 1973 ?

Image

Shaun


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