Women Riders of this forum OR those who know women who ride

[Lazarus]

Sorry for the strange title, but only women riders will be able to answer my questions, OR those who genuinely know women who ride reasonable distances. Thanks to anyone who can help me out

1) "what main issues re: comfort do women suffer on long hauls that men don't ?" ie: body shape. A woman for example has a predominantly more top heavy torso than a man. Does this mean that drop handle bars set for racing/touring cause women to reach too far forward ? If so, then over long distance does this cause miscomfort to said area ?

2) "changing gears" What is the preference, traditional downtube, stem mounted. or STI's ?

3) "Saddle shape" do womens anatomical actually work better OR for example would a slender type women be just as comfortable on a mans saddle ? I can vouch for San Marco Rolls over very long distance, but I am a slim man. I find it is the width of the saddle that causes me to feel comfort. Womens saddles are larger in the bum area for eg. A saddle that feels good for 40miles, can after 80miles leave you feeling like you've been cut in half. Experienced riders will know which saddles to avoid and which actually mold to your bum and get better the more miles you ride.

I guess I just really need some down to earth honest info from someone who can put me straight on the does & don'ts of building a long haul womans bike, advice from experience not a text book (no offence). Everything I can find out will help build a bike for purpose, not for show

Sorry if anyone finds me too forthright, but that's just me being me, no offence is meant Any genuine advice really would be appreciated. Thanks, yours Laz.

 

[Lazarus]

Hope this isn't an embarrasing thread for anyone ? Sorry if it is The questions seem reasonable to me. Any info re:long distance rides and how it affects women really would help. Never built a bike for a woman to ride long distance and simpy assume it might have small differences that make a huge difference to the rider.

The person it is for is NOT a hardened cyclist, just someone with enormous courage and buckets of determination. Every tiny detail that'll help the rider might be the difference between "being able to continue or not".

I know that when the legs go, even 5miles can be too much. A bike built to "give back some miles" might make the difference Again, sorry if anyone thinks I'm being a bit "niave over the man/woman differences", but with respect, I'd feel foolish for simply assuming " there is no difference". Thanks, yours Laz.

 

[Rich34]

I've got a report (in French - it's a PDF and you're welcome to it if you can translate it or understand French) by a German girl who rode Paris-Brest-Paris this year. She did a lot of training and rode an Alex Singer so a pretty serious bike though she didn't say if it was custom built for her or off the peg, however she did make a few observations about the ride in general. She used a Brooks saddle which was well-shaped but she had some kind of allergic reaction - the race doctor sorted her out though with some kind of ointment but she didn't go into detail for obvious reasons... A big plus were a very comfy pair of cycling gloves she bought specially for the ride, so perhaps worth going for some comfort there. The pictures showed a relatively upright riding position too. The only drawback she mentioned was her gearing, which she felt could have been more appropriate, so I suppose if you know the routes you're taking you can put some thought into that, or just go for the easy option with a triple chainset and some low gears at the back.

Perhaps the most interesting thing is that she didn't really go into detail about doing the ride as a woman, or cycling in general as a woman, and I suspect that's because it's not really an issue. I would put the emphasis on comfort (clothes, saddle, gears, position) and go for it. Your friend will probably get on better with STI as opposed to having to take her hands off the bars to change, but I don't know what she's used to.

I hope that's helpful. I'm building a bike for my wife and the only factor is to make it as comfy and user-friendly as possible, she just wants to potter about and not feel crippled the next day.

 

[Bob]

I'm building a bike for my wife and the only factor is to make it as comfy and user-friendly as possible, she just wants to potter about and not feel crippled the next day.

Don't know if any of this is of any use, but...

I've just finished putting a bike together for Mrs Bob, having had her try various bike sizes, riding posistions and parts, the final build she found most comfortable was...
Tiny little Trek frame 14".. modern style high front end due to her lack of reach
STI shifters... due to small hands, she actually preffered the idea of the sachs waveys I put on first but she found them awkward due to small hands. Handle bar... equal to her shoulder width (don't know if this is like a rule of thumb, but it works for her).
Grips... Foam ones, yet more comfort and squish nicely to be able to get her hands round the bar better.
Saddle... The most important bit, she's liking a WTB womens specific, got an hole in it and apparently the padding elsewhere is layed out differently to releave pressure points that are different to chaps.

For reference Mrs Bob is 4'11", the same size and shape as Kylie


EDIT ... Do'h! just realised i'd wondered into the scary skinny tyre forum, most if not all the above could well be irrelevant

 

[Lazarus]

Hi Richie / Bob Thank you for the open feedback my friends, this is already invaluable info and I can feel my brain saying "DOH" why didn't I just realise that.

It's certainly a strange situation Richie re: why is the topic of women specific issues & long distance so taboo/un-nerving ? Quite odd that this lady who did the long haul was not very "open" about certain issues, but perhaps none of the things I am exploring even entered her head. This is perhaps where the barrier between a predominantly male sport meets a wall of "ignorance / lack of info re: womens needs ?" I say this in a very non derogatory way

I know of so few women who ride 80+miles on a regular basis. Perhaps this is because so few do ? This in turn will fuel the vacuum of information, simply because there is nothing to go on. I have always known that saddles are "individual"specific, but that is only to within reason. That bit about the Brooks is very interesting, and I am no fan of gel saddles especially since the wife split one on a ride, it just burst open at the seams after about 16miles of solid riding.

"The Riding Stance / Position" is also a male dominated area of knowledge. Sure women in the sport adapt to this forward leaning race type posture, but is this actually ideal for them ? Its a concept based within aerodynamics and time saving for racers, not a posture designed for folk who want to ride long distance without any prior experience.

Your own input Bob albeit MTB related is of equal importance regardless of cycling genre, since it relates directly to experiences of women & bikes. Wether MTB or Road, "long distance" is an issue of its own. The more hours spent in the saddle, the worse it gets, and the cut off point between where something of discomfort becomes unbearable is, wether male or female, an invisible 1. No-one knows where it is until it happens.

No matter how much I ask the wife if I can change her handlebars from a drop type to some other, she won't let me, despite the top torse weight factor being obvious to us both. Her hands at times are so sore "from the weight she loads onto them". Perhaps in writing this I am noticing that in essence "only time in the saddle toughens the rider accordingly " and that the few women who race long distance have adapted to a mans posture simply because it is the physical geometry of aerodynamics that determines this position, which in turn is not gender sympathetic.

Furthermore, peloton/pack type cycling is a totally different experience to individual long haul. It is pack cycling that again determines position / posture since 1 individual riding upright will effectivey break the airflow created. Perhaps ultimately (again from writing this new thoughts appear) "there is only so much protection via bike design I can offer to a novice rider ?"

I digress my thoughts now, but from this I can see that " hand grip & saddle type " are perhaps 2 of the the most important areas to address. Posture I am beginning to feel is there as an issue, but slightly more secondary to "load bearing surface on the handlebars & surface flexibility of the saddle".

As a final thought, " 172.5 crank length is slightly easier to turn than 170" ? Pedals also become an issue in "foot sutface area". I say this based on the fact she may never get used to SPD and need platform type / toeclip type. Hmmmmm, so much to think about. Thanks again gents for the "mental stimulation". I'm just 1 of those folk who from time to time need to bounce off someone or something Later guys, Laz.

PS: I will of course start to upload build pics when it gets underway in the next week or 2

 

[Rich34]

Not sure about the crank length Laz, I always thought that had more to do with the size of the rider (i.e: length of the legs) than pure leverage as such. Might be worth looking into though - I saw some 165mm Campag track cranks on eBay a while ago and my first thought was "must be harder to turn..." One of my local bike shops says there's no discernible difference between 170mm and 172.5mm - but then why would manufacturers bother to make diferent sizes?

As for pedals, IMHO you might be thinking too much on this, unless your lady has the (not un-natural) fear of "staying clipped in" and falling over? If she has shoes she finds comfy surely that would be more significant than the type of pedals?

It's all conjecture of course as Mrs Laz is the only one who can really answer these questions! I look forward to seeing the build at any rate and hearing about the solutions that work. If all else fails I reckon a postcard of George Clooney gaffer taped to the handlebars would take my wifes' mind off the pain... :roll:

 

[dbmtb]

You can't generalise Laz. It seems to have more to do with height and training than anything else.

We tend to find in Denmark that women are taller - with longer legs and that "Women specific" designs are often too compact for women over 1.70 - and that it's better to modify a "mens'" bike with narrower bars, shorter, raised stem and womens' saddle.

My wife sits absolutely perfectly on my FSR with exactly the same adjustments as me - and she's 5 cm shorter then me. But on her road bike (the wilier I used to race on) I had to fit narrower bars and a very short stem.

But the really fast women I've worked with (including one former national MTB champion and one junior world track champion) ride standard mens' bikes with slightly shorter stems, wear mens' shorts and mens' saddle. And no - they're not "Manly" types. One is a petite 1.65 and the other easily 1.80.

It's all down to the individual at the end of the day and rules are made to be broken.

 

[Lazarus]

Hi again Rich I can only imagine that some boffin somewhere worked out that 172.5's have some advantage over 170's. As a chap with an engineering background I know that the longer the leverage, the easier it is to move that which they lever, but at cost to "flex". Nearly bought a rare set of 180mm crank arms off a chap about a year ago, but he warned of the "noticeable flexing when in use". It put me off buying them.

I'm pretty sure that Pista cranks are 165 because they deliver more "direct drive" via less flex, but maybe someone in here can advise further ? Can't imagine for a second that the crank length is to do with riders height, I mean 2.5mm can be found in the seatpost. Thanks for dropping by again, yours Laz.

Hi DB "Shorter Stem, Narrower bars" is something I'm already aware of buddy Its nice to have my own thoughts confirmed though, since the Faggin built for the wife is more of a short haul showoff piece than a serious machine. Don't really know how it would handle 95miles/140km.

Never thought for 1 second that female cyclists of any calibre are "manly" simply because they use "mens kit" after all, what choice have they got ? As I said somewhere earlier, perhaps the nature of cycling means that the frame geometry/posture is determined via physics and is absolutely gender unsympathetic. I am aware from posting that my own "ignorance" is huge on this topic, but slowly the information my brain requires to fill the gaps is coming out in the 2 posts I have running.

I am always grateful when people post, no matter what they say, grateful they took the time to let me hear their own thoughts / experiences. The info you have posted here is 1st hand my friend, thank you You know females who race / ride long distance and ultimately "they adapt" to the physics of the sport, and over time perhaps they have tweaked their riding needs without realising it.

I guess there are limits to how much a bikes design can offer help to a novice rider seeking to do a 1st time long haul. The shorter stem use by your own wife is very good information since she is a long established rider, is she not. On another note, I am starting to recognise that womens frames geometries are set for higher headtube / lower seattube thus automatically determing the posture of the rider. I guess, I need to search the web more for perhaps a blog of someone who has taken on a long haul as a novice OR a seasoned female riders blog / life story containing "learning curve information".

Perhaps the upshot of my posts will be that I recognise that the hard and fast rules we follow as cyclists are simply "the best regardless of gender" and that ultimately we adapt via experience, perhaps without really noticing / remembering that change. I only recently moved from toeclips to SPD for example, but can now no longer ride toeclips because they simply are not as effective & comfortable as SPD.

Thanks again DB, always appreciated when you post, yours Laz.

 

[taylorsummers]

Interesting question,

My wife is the same size as me however she cannot ride my bike as it is too big and she says she is to stretched out even tho she is the same size :? :?

She reguarly used to do 80-100 miles, was a national champion and a lot harder rider than i ever was. if you ask her what would be the one thing she would recomend then it would be a womens saddle with the cut out. I quote "As a normal seat is not very nice to "lady bits""

I think its also what you get used to, I used to think of nothing of going out and doing 100-120miles now my arse is killing if i do about 25!!!!

Also riding position has a lot to do with it, if riders hands/wrists are hurting then they are putting to much weight/pressure thro them. You shouldnt really be gripping the bars just resting on them, maybe need to shift her weight back more onto the saddle.

I guess this info is going to help you build your bike for the girl doing the charity ride?? A Very nice thing for you to do mate good on you.
Cheers
Craig

 

[Lazarus]

Hi Craig "Excellent post my man" .... someone who has direct connections to a woman who has or still does long haul. Your wife will know far more than she remembers because like us all, we forget what we've learnt over the years, and take it for granted when we get back in the saddle.

The name of the saddle she used would be "perfect", eventhough I know saddles are an individual thing, in truth they are not. The longer we ride, the more we "feel" what is right for us because we know the difference via experience. Having looked at many many Brookes saddles this last year I kept forming the opinion that they "look cool" but ride like a swine, but .... I've never ridden a Brookes so I speculate only.

The part re: "bits" is exactly what I need to hear (so glad you're down to earth & not prudish), t'was something I suspected but needed to hear from someone who knows, THANKS

My thoughts run like this, "If she holds out, does the first 94 miles via help, a good bike, and sheer courage, but suffers severe discomfort to any part of her body, she will not recover for the next days ride. Day 2 will do even more damage and so her chances of succeeding will slip farther and farther away".

I can't really explain what's in my head without a small story, so here goes :

"When I bought my Faggin in Hamburg in 1984 from the Von Hacht brothers it was my 4th bike, BUT at that time in my life I had never ridden with purpose, only for fun. I was extra fit, fitter than I knew (you'll see why soon). I collected it Saturday morning, and they asked if I fancied a bit of a Sunday run with them & a few others. Of course I jumped at the chance, eventhough at that time I had no idea who they were.

I met them Sunday, and off we set. I was expecting a nice easy ride of about 30km-40km, certainly not the 30km out, 120km race, and 30km back I was already embarked on without knowing. Within 10km my ears were ringing with tellings off from Werner, "get them legs straight, stop fidgetting, hold the line straight, put your back down, straighten your arms, relax. I felt like my head was going to explode. Wondered how riding a bike had gone from so much fun to becoming so god damn complex. " Get back in the saddle, keep your legs at the same pace (cadence) ..... it just seemed to go on ... this constant nagging was driving me nuts ..... then it clicked, my head went that last notch and all of what he was teaching me was making sense.

My bum stopped hurting, my thighs relaxed, my upper body felt so free, the handlebars became mine and that line was never straighter, I could feel myself flying, absolutely effortlessly flying in pack, 2 by 2 right down the line, in the saddle up hills, kept peddaling downhill, NO freewheeling allowed (cadence, cadence, cadence) thats all they drummed into me.

Within 40km, my knees touched my elbows with each stroke, my pedal count was set in my head, the rhythm unfaltering, like a heart beat, set to perfection, it just kept beating the same rate uphill or down, my legs never felt the pedals, my eyes never faltered from the wheel infront, but most of all "my entire body was at peace with itself", there was no more doing 1 thing at the expense of another ache.

Sore bums come from twitching in the saddle

120km is just that if you hold a straight line, its more like 126km if you slide all over the road (so when you get beat by 3cm, remember how many you wasted getting to the finish line).

Most of all, Posture / Composure / MY perfect cadence ... not someone elses. Manfred, a smallish guy about 5'7" with short legs, but what a power house of a man at 47 compared to my then 23. His legs workd twice as fast as mine, yet we travelled the same speed at the same cost to our bodies. He liked higher gearing with a higher cadence, I have always ridden low gears, lower cadence, but thats what suits me (53-19 almost always even on long hills).

The point of all of this story Craig is "we forget what we've learnt ... just take it for granted". 1 day with those guys (world champions at both road & time trials, not to mention German / European champions etc.) changed my life in a way that will never be changed back. I get on my bike and ride, its the same bike they built all those years ago, it fits ME and only ME.

I have a 33" inside leg, but am only 6' tall, that is quite some inside leg to have power the pedals, thats why my cadence is lower than most, more power per stroke, less need to stroke. I came home that day in 3hrs 40 odd mins, they powered home in 3hrs 7mins something lke that. I tailed off at 112km, fell back to help 1 of the older riders who'd lost his legs. I lost my legs within 2km ... and I mean lost them ... a feeling I shall never forget ... no second wind ... no 3rd wind ... no youthful enthusiasm ... all empty .... all of me just empty in a scary way.

Once back in the pack after short rest at the finish line, the last 30km home just flew past me ... without pain. My bike came into its own that day, the bike itself gave back to me what I had earlier in the day taken from it, and when I arrived home, I knew I'd been on a ride. It was only when I got home the lads told me who they where, and much to my surprise they were gobsmacked that I was home at all. As they so apty put it to me, "if you can handle what you just did as a pure novice, christ knows what you'd achieve with some decent advice & training".

So you see Craig, I know what this woman is going to experience, both testing in so many ways, yet exilarating in a life changing way. The bike ... she will always remember as her only true companion, her 1 truthful allie, it will mold itself into her life and cease to be a bike, and instead become the other half of what helped her achieve her goal The more perfect I can guestimate this bike to her needs, the better.

Thanks for dropping by my friend, and if you don't mind me saying publicly, "your wife seems like 1 helluva woman to meet". For what its worth, give her my best sincere regards, for even the few snipets of info she has allowed you to post, have helped enormously for me to focus on what will be right for our London to Paris woman. Yours Anthony aka Laz.

PS: All things permitting Craig, I'll be there too, along with my nephew and son From just 1 spark, so much enthusiasm can grow.