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No mention of Titanium welding in this thread...
Mind the only Ti frames I've seen self destruct where the Raleigh's in the early 90's
Mind the only Ti frames I've seen self destruct where the Raleigh's in the early 90's
Repairing Alu frames, is it worth it and pictures please
- Thread starter mattbrown
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my cousins a pipe welder,i can weld to a reasonable standard in arc and gas brazing ,i learned at a engineering course when i was 18 or socherrybomb":1ryzyyjf said:dyna-ti":1ryzyyjf said:Do an eve or weekend course at college cost about £70GoldenEraMTB":1ryzyyjf said:monsterfatuk":1ryzyyjf said:
How I wish i could weld aluminum...
or steel for that matter
Aluminum fails in a nasty way...wouldn't chance it unless you're a great welder or willing to pay one.
Anyone can learn to Weld
T'aint brain surgery
Humm? :?
Anyone can learn to make a half decent job of welding steel maybe (and I mean maybe) but doing a reasonable job on aluminium is a whole different sack of kippers.
The point is ,many of the other trainees,emm how do i put this,,were thick absolutely no offense to them, all great guys
they were on block release from clyde yards and small firms
If they can learn anyone can
OK before you all poo poo me down on this
Alloy [the 6061 etc series]needs to be welded using tig or mig and leaves the new weld and surrounding area one hell of a lot weaker[i think its about 75% weaker]has to be heat treated after,and there in lies the problem
cherrybomb
Old School Grand Master
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With you all the way on everything you've said (except the 6000 series alloy bit, that air hardens with time. It's why small frame builders use it.)
There's a big difference between welding in steel and billet to welding alloy pipes that are maybe 1mm thick though. Most welders not used to handling it will just blow holes in it or not get any penetration at all (which I've seen on failed welds on early Klein frames.)
There's a big difference between welding in steel and billet to welding alloy pipes that are maybe 1mm thick though. Most welders not used to handling it will just blow holes in it or not get any penetration at all (which I've seen on failed welds on early Klein frames.)
my funk had been repaired when i go it back in '91 i think it was, so it wasn't that old (given that mbuk tested the funk may '90, found it in the loft!) chain stays & top of seat tube wrapped with carbon fibre by mike burrows, the down tube cracked just behind the head tube, the old man took it to a localish ali welding god who repaired it & added a gusset. was always a 2nd bike, did courier on it, odd sunday club ride & won the norfolk schoolboy champs on it. still going strong, not sure that i trust it off road & hasn't been use in 'anger' in years.
Thought I would throw my two cents worth in the ring.
Evening lads (and lasses)
Just thought I would add to the above discussion with two pionts.
I agree that it is fairly straightforward to weld steel, but alu and other exotics, especially the very thin walled type used on bikes is very technical due to the points listed above, the heat treatment afterward to even a experienced welder dealing with a material he is not used to can blow holes through a thinwalled bike frame. The equipment , nozzles etc for the different material vary greatly.
I myself spent the majority of my life back home in church restoration, this involved a small amount of steel welding, mainly heavy duty fixing of equiptment. The bulk was brazing of copper for steeples, valleys etc, but I was also required to weld lead. As you can imagine, using oxyacetylene to weld even 15mm lead sheet with a lead rod took a lot of finesse as you move just a fraction too close and bang , youve blown a huge hole that just melts away.
I would not attempt to have a go at alu, maybe have a shot at an easy repair on a steel but every material is different and needs someone experienced if I were to risk ridiing with confidence.
I have a M2 team S works from Crow, hoping to get it repaired but Spesh have just got back to me saying its a non starter due to it being welded, which was hard enough with untreated tubes, but then the frames were heat treated to various differing temps to strengthen then frames. So if I were to weld it, the heat from my weld would then weaken everything around it. Real bummer as its such a lovely frame with just a tiny hairline crack on a chainstay right next to the bridge.
Then again I could touch up the paint, ignore and just not pedal hard on the left :roll:
Anyway after all this waffle, I think ask the manufacturer if a fix is possible, after all they made it so know what went into it.
Have a pleasant evening
Jamie
Evening lads (and lasses)
Just thought I would add to the above discussion with two pionts.
I agree that it is fairly straightforward to weld steel, but alu and other exotics, especially the very thin walled type used on bikes is very technical due to the points listed above, the heat treatment afterward to even a experienced welder dealing with a material he is not used to can blow holes through a thinwalled bike frame. The equipment , nozzles etc for the different material vary greatly.
I myself spent the majority of my life back home in church restoration, this involved a small amount of steel welding, mainly heavy duty fixing of equiptment. The bulk was brazing of copper for steeples, valleys etc, but I was also required to weld lead. As you can imagine, using oxyacetylene to weld even 15mm lead sheet with a lead rod took a lot of finesse as you move just a fraction too close and bang , youve blown a huge hole that just melts away.
I would not attempt to have a go at alu, maybe have a shot at an easy repair on a steel but every material is different and needs someone experienced if I were to risk ridiing with confidence.
I have a M2 team S works from Crow, hoping to get it repaired but Spesh have just got back to me saying its a non starter due to it being welded, which was hard enough with untreated tubes, but then the frames were heat treated to various differing temps to strengthen then frames. So if I were to weld it, the heat from my weld would then weaken everything around it. Real bummer as its such a lovely frame with just a tiny hairline crack on a chainstay right next to the bridge.
Then again I could touch up the paint, ignore and just not pedal hard on the left :roll:
Anyway after all this waffle, I think ask the manufacturer if a fix is possible, after all they made it so know what went into it.
Have a pleasant evening
Jamie
shovelon
Senior Retro Guru
Re: Thought I would throw my two cents worth in the ring.
So what is the M2 alloy anyway? The S works people are being just lazy b*****s.
Pull the crank, clean the paint, call your local weld professional in the area, and ask what the minimum charge to do a quick weld on a crack using 5356 filler(5183 is better but not as common as 5356). Tell them you have already cleaned the area, filed a groove for a bevel, and there is a bare metal in the area for a ground clamp, and it is ready to put on a bench for a 5 minute repair. Ask them to not overheat the repair, and you are done. If they don't know what you are talking about, run.
Ask any seasoned professional which metal is easier to weld, steel or alum, and the answer is alum any day. A real professional does not have time to dick around(except union professionals), and will be in and out of the weld area before you can say "Here's your money". And the heat affected zone will only get stronger with time, but you need to let the frame sit for a week before riding or you risk fatigue in the heat affected zone (let it gain some stength back). Most frames(S works included) sit on the factory for for weeks before they are artificially aged or simply painted. Every, and I mean every 7005 frame is not heat treated, only simply stress relieved during the powder coat phase.
Come on guys, get out there and support your local weld professionals. They are better than you think.
Jamiedyer":3qihvzu0 said:
So what is the M2 alloy anyway? The S works people are being just lazy b*****s.
Pull the crank, clean the paint, call your local weld professional in the area, and ask what the minimum charge to do a quick weld on a crack using 5356 filler(5183 is better but not as common as 5356). Tell them you have already cleaned the area, filed a groove for a bevel, and there is a bare metal in the area for a ground clamp, and it is ready to put on a bench for a 5 minute repair. Ask them to not overheat the repair, and you are done. If they don't know what you are talking about, run.
Ask any seasoned professional which metal is easier to weld, steel or alum, and the answer is alum any day. A real professional does not have time to dick around(except union professionals), and will be in and out of the weld area before you can say "Here's your money". And the heat affected zone will only get stronger with time, but you need to let the frame sit for a week before riding or you risk fatigue in the heat affected zone (let it gain some stength back). Most frames(S works included) sit on the factory for for weeks before they are artificially aged or simply painted. Every, and I mean every 7005 frame is not heat treated, only simply stress relieved during the powder coat phase.
Come on guys, get out there and support your local weld professionals. They are better than you think.
Morning all
Morning guys, maybe that should be good morning
Shovelon, regarding the M2, I am going on what Specialized have said and the fact that I cant find anyone who has repaired an M2 succesfully.
I have access to through a couple of mates, to a welder who welds all kinds of stuff, some exotic, for a nuclear facility nearby, but he said they need to know exactly what they were welding. Spesh wouldnt tell me exactly what was in the material and due to the heat strengthening it would only make it weaker.
Would the filler rod you mentioned work for the M2?
I would really like to repair and I have my other stumpy and M4 S works so this one in reality is not going to see much hard work, and even if its a bit suspect I could just use it for more casual rides plodding along with the family etc, its just such a lovely frame its a shame to retire it off with no further use.
I am not doubting you at all, as your the first one to give me hope for the old team frame, but it is hard to trust it when you have that picture as an avatar :shock:
Cheers mate
Jamie
Morning guys, maybe that should be good morning
Shovelon, regarding the M2, I am going on what Specialized have said and the fact that I cant find anyone who has repaired an M2 succesfully.
I have access to through a couple of mates, to a welder who welds all kinds of stuff, some exotic, for a nuclear facility nearby, but he said they need to know exactly what they were welding. Spesh wouldnt tell me exactly what was in the material and due to the heat strengthening it would only make it weaker.
Would the filler rod you mentioned work for the M2?
I would really like to repair and I have my other stumpy and M4 S works so this one in reality is not going to see much hard work, and even if its a bit suspect I could just use it for more casual rides plodding along with the family etc, its just such a lovely frame its a shame to retire it off with no further use.
I am not doubting you at all, as your the first one to give me hope for the old team frame, but it is hard to trust it when you have that picture as an avatar :shock:
Cheers mate
Jamie
shovelon
Senior Retro Guru
Hi Jamie.
Even Scandium or composite alloys are repair welded with High Strength 5356. I am almost certain M4 would be the same. Ceramic matrix composite is ceramic whiskers blended into a 6061 base and welded with 5356. Yeti frames were welded with 5183 early on as it was higher strength than 5356. The high strength fillers solidify faster than the heat affected zone thereby strain hardening it upon cooling. Some stresses can build up there, and it can shake out a bit while it ages for a week. That is why it is recommended that all straightening be done directly after weld, while soft, because it restrengthens itself.
Like I said, it is the time that the weld pool is in solution that is the problem. The quicker the better. 6061 t6 for example when cold welded(no preheat or overheat in weld), drops to T-0 during weld, but bounces back to T-2 when cooled, then ages naturally to T-4 over months, then strain hardens when ridden to T-6 over time, then fatigue cracks eventually. Then you can start the process all over again with the repair. Only virgin weldments that welded with high heat and long heat durations need be solution(oven)heat treated. Section repair if done correctly may actually age or harden it further, if you are catching on to my meaning.
Easton has very good, easy to read data on these alloys. Easton recommends thier$$$$Scandium fillers, but I have spoken with Easton engineers, and 5356 is fine.
http://www.eastonbike.com/downloadable_ ... 5_6061.pdf
http://www.eastonbike.com/downloadable_ ... ons-sc.pdf
If all else fails, get your dealer to have S bikes send you a repair proceedure. Last time I checked, S bikes either replaced the frames, or repaired. I did not see them go bankrupt lately either.
Terry
Even Scandium or composite alloys are repair welded with High Strength 5356. I am almost certain M4 would be the same. Ceramic matrix composite is ceramic whiskers blended into a 6061 base and welded with 5356. Yeti frames were welded with 5183 early on as it was higher strength than 5356. The high strength fillers solidify faster than the heat affected zone thereby strain hardening it upon cooling. Some stresses can build up there, and it can shake out a bit while it ages for a week. That is why it is recommended that all straightening be done directly after weld, while soft, because it restrengthens itself.
Like I said, it is the time that the weld pool is in solution that is the problem. The quicker the better. 6061 t6 for example when cold welded(no preheat or overheat in weld), drops to T-0 during weld, but bounces back to T-2 when cooled, then ages naturally to T-4 over months, then strain hardens when ridden to T-6 over time, then fatigue cracks eventually. Then you can start the process all over again with the repair. Only virgin weldments that welded with high heat and long heat durations need be solution(oven)heat treated. Section repair if done correctly may actually age or harden it further, if you are catching on to my meaning.
Easton has very good, easy to read data on these alloys. Easton recommends thier$$$$Scandium fillers, but I have spoken with Easton engineers, and 5356 is fine.
http://www.eastonbike.com/downloadable_ ... 5_6061.pdf
http://www.eastonbike.com/downloadable_ ... ons-sc.pdf
If all else fails, get your dealer to have S bikes send you a repair proceedure. Last time I checked, S bikes either replaced the frames, or repaired. I did not see them go bankrupt lately either.
Terry
dyna-ti":2yp4soh2 said:my cousins a pipe welder,i can weld to a reasonable standard in arc and gas brazing ,i learned at a engineering course when i was 18 or socherrybomb":2yp4soh2 said:dyna-ti":2yp4soh2 said:Do an eve or weekend course at college cost about £70GoldenEraMTB":2yp4soh2 said:monsterfatuk":2yp4soh2 said:
How I wish i could weld aluminum...
or steel for that matter
Aluminum fails in a nasty way...wouldn't chance it unless you're a great welder or willing to pay one.
Anyone can learn to Weld
T'aint brain surgery
Humm? :?
Anyone can learn to make a half decent job of welding steel maybe (and I mean maybe) but doing a reasonable job on aluminium is a whole different sack of kippers.
The point is ,many of the other trainees,emm how do i put this,,were thick absolutely no offense to them, all great guys
they were on block release from clyde yards and small firms
If they can learn anyone can
OK before you all poo poo me down on this
Alloy [the 6061 etc series]needs to be welded using tig or mig and leaves the new weld and surrounding area one hell of a lot weaker[i think its about 75% weaker]has to be heat treated after,and there in lies the problem
OK I'll bite :roll: a clyde welder and a frame builder are as different as a roughing joiner and a cabinet maker, Anyone can hammer a nail in a bit of wood the same anyone can be shown how to arc weld.
