Our NHS

[Silvergoat]

Re:

I'm not sure why some think that investing in the health of the nation for the good of all of us, is an evil. In the long run, it pays to ensure that the UK is a healthy, fully productive and wealth producing nation. Remember, each and everyone of us who has been working and paying into the NHS for generations since its creation have a stake in it. Do we really want to be in a situation where treatment is unaffordable for most people and put beyond their reach because medical healthcare insurance won't cover them for various reasons and exclusions, say like something deemed as a pre-existing condition?

Round my way in North London, three hospitals and their A&Es have been closed with the land developed for 'affordable' high-spec housing. This means a large swathe of North London is ending up in the one remaining hospital which of course now means it's struggling with the increased and displaced demand for its services which in turn means it is now being viewed as failing because it doesn't have enough resources to cover the increased and displaced population demanding its services. Many of its services have already been reorganised and contracted out. Local GPs are now only allowed to spend no more than seven minutes per patient, with some of their basic functions now being automated.

For much of the NHS, many functions have already been outsourced or part privatised. A lot of the funds go towards management structures and servicing contracts. The NHS is hamstrung by government and prevented from shopping around and deciding itself on where contracts are awarded, so ends up paying way more than it needs to on, for example, basic essential office supplies. The provision of IT is another topical example of how important services the NHS depends on have been outsourced beyond its control, with IT support coming from a disembodied call centre somewhere. Again, the NHS had its budgets and funding restricted by government for years so it was unable to sanction essential operating system upgrades, then finds itself caught out by the recent hacks because of running outdated software. Providers of outsourced service contracts have no particular stake in the quality of provision as they are in business to maximise profit from contracts.

Over recent years, the NHS has been consistently under-funded, to the point where it is perceived to be failing. Some of the more cynical out there might say it has been deliberately positioned or set up to fail, giving government the opportunity to take things in hand and bring in the corporate money to save it.

Despite being the party of law and order, the Conservatives – under Theresa May's watch since 2010 – have been underfunding and cutting the resources of the Police, security services and armed forces, making them do more for less with less. Some might say that as previously Home Secretary and now PM, all you then need is a husband with connections to G4S.

Several generations have grown up through the golden post-War boom years and have enjoyed and taken for granted all the benefits of the NHS, proper pensions, availability of jobs, affordable mortgages and housing, etc. Long term under-funding in all of these things hasn't ensured that there's something left in the pot for future generations. The old have shut the door on the young and the ruling class are subjugating the many.

To lose our NHS would be a massive betrayal and criminal. We all contribute towards it for the good of all of us and the nation.

 

[technodup]

Using emotive nonsense like 'our NHS' is symptomatic of the problem. Everyone thinks they have a divine right to what they need, as well as what they want, whenever they like. All about rights and less about responsibilities.

Far far too many fat bastards. Too many smokers. Too many alkies. Too many junkies. Too many filling up A&E after fighting/spewing/collapsing at the weekend. Too many health tourists. Too many bad drivers. Too many terrorists! Too many who'll not turn up for an appointment. Too many who'll throw away prescriptions (especially in Scotland). All wasting the valuable resources we all pay for, and supposedly care so much about (as long as someone else/the government pays for it). Oh and too many spineless politicians scared to tell us that truth.

Add that lot up and you're well into billions territory. I would guess tens of billions.

Simply throwing money at it will never be the answer, it'll swallow whatever we spend on it and still put its hand out for more. A holistic and balanced approach is required. Which should include privatisation where appropriate e.g. where they can provide the same/better outcomes at the same/lesser cost. At the very least, I'd go a lot further.

I'll not hold my breath.

 

[brocklanders023]

Re:

I like the NHS. They spotted my Son's heart condition at 12 weeks, they gave us specialist care at his birth, they did open heart surgery on him to save his life when he was 2 months old and he is now seen every 6 months by the heart specialists. The staff have been, without exception, wonderful.

I'd happily pay more tax to keep it public and have voted accordingly.

 

[technodup]

Re: Re:

I'd happily pay more tax to keep it public

Send HMRC a cheque then.

 

[brocklanders023]

Re:

I pay every penny of tax I am expected to pay, unlike many people I know. If I could send money that would guarantee the NHS stayed public I would.

 

[Silvergoat]

Re:

Me too, after benefitting from their care and also seeing others do so too.

Through our salaries, millions of us already pay towards the NHS through NI contributions and income tax. Because of this, it is our NHS and it is worth more than every penny we contribute and I would be happy if the NI contributions and income tax were raised. It would only need to be a marginal amount to make a real difference.

The problem is the under funding and the culture of privatisation and the tinkering by successive governments, implementing target-obsessed management structures. Demonising the very people we rely on to look after everyone of us in times of ill health or injury or whatever is also part of the problem too.

Globally, the UK has the lowest rate of corporation tax, bar a couple of inflation-ridden banana republic South and Central American countries. Even in the US, it's a 30% tax rate. May be we should chase all of those individuals and companies that have got away with 'off-shoring' and not paying the millions in taxes that they owe and are required to pay to the UK. Send Sir Philip Green, his wife, Richard Branson, most of the Tories who also have business interests yet claim their expenses off the British public and all the rest of these high-flying tax evading/avoiding parasites a HMRC bill.

Considering some of the violent outrages that have happened recently in the UK, I would like to know how a privatised healthcare system would respond to large numbers of fatalities and injured members of the public.

 

[technodup]

Re: Re:

Globally, the UK has the lowest rate of corporation tax,

This is one of the stupidest arguments there is, and the Tories should have nailed Corbyn on it every time he spent his supposed increase in the take.

Companies are a legal construct. They don't actually exist per se, and they certainly don't pay tax. Businesses are simply groups of people, employees, shareholders, customers. People pay tax. When you raise corporation tax who actually pays? The people.

So you have a whole tranche of people who think they can punish the big nasty corporations (leaving aside the fact the VAST majority of UK businesses are SMEs who will feel the pain sooner and sharper than BT or Sky ever would) by raising their taxes. Without understanding that those very same businesses are simply going to pass on the increase in higher prices. So the idiots will pay all along, whilst thinking they're sticking it to the man.

 

[Silvergoat]

Re:

Hey, this is a bonza wheeze! Next time Virgin Media or any other company sends me a bill, I can decline it saying "you don't actually exist per se – you're merely a legal construct". Top work! May be I can try this with my council tax too. This probably how the Sir Philip Greens of this world operate and amass their fortunes, as well as using other people's (the staff's) pension funds to maintain a lavish lifestyle.

 

[Bats]

Re: Re:

Companies are a legal construct. They don't actually exist per se, and they certainly don't pay tax. Businesses are simply groups of people, employees, shareholders, customers. People pay tax. When you raise corporation tax who actually pays? The people.

Nah, the company pays, on account of the company's money and property is legally owned by the company.

Now, if you're saying that companies aren't real (but they own things) it means that surely you'd have no problem with a little bit of seizing of the means of production. Because like you said, nobody owns it, it's abandoned.

Capitalism defeats itself #4583892

 

[technodup]

Re: Re:

Hey, this is a bonza wheeze! Next time Virgin Media or any other company sends me a bill, I can decline it saying "you don't actually exist per se – you're merely a legal construct". Top work!

Aye, a legal entity you agreed a price with.

It's funny because left thinking types are always wary of hiking VAT. Why? Because it disproportionally affects the low paid because they spend a larger proportion of their income. Why is that an issue? Because obviously companies will simply pass the increased VAT rate onto consumers.

But those same left thinkers don't believe the same thing happens with corporation tax. The name doesn't help tbh. It suggests big boys and fat cats and the reality is miles away from that.