Lightest Steel Frame?

Great story @bulgie!

It goes to say steel is right there as a top material for lightweight frame building if you know how to work well with it.

I am sure the time will come when the bike industy will re-invent the wheel once more and discover and remarket the benefits of steel over carbon for high end bikes. At that point Tange's current tubing would be the first to be in high demand. I don't exclude this as a future scenario with what we have seen already.

Anyhow, if you have the chance would you document in here the new bike you will be building for your wife?

It would be interesting to have a framebuilder sharing a build up from step 0 to roll-out! Plus, it sound like it would be as light as the first one you built for her.
 
Great story @bulgie!

It goes to say steel is right there as a top material for lightweight frame building if you know how to work well with it.

I am sure the time will come when the bike industy will re-invent the wheel once more and discover and remarket the benefits of steel over carbon for high end bikes. At that point Tange's current tubing would be the first to be in high demand. I don't exclude this as a future scenario with what we have seen already.

Anyhow, if you have the chance would you document in here the new bike you will be building for your wife?

It would be interesting to have a framebuilder sharing a build up from step 0 to roll-out! Plus, it sound like it would be as light as the first one you built for her.
Thanks, I'll gladly share the progress but it will be very slow. I got as far as cutting out the old toptube etc and then got pulled to other projects. Summer is for riding, and in the Fall we tend to go camping in the desert, visit friends in Arizona etc. So it'll probably be a Winter project. Meanwhile Laurie has 3 nice bikes to ride, road race, touring and gravel, oops make that 5 bikes if we include the MTB and the e-bike, the only bikes in the place that aren't 'vintage'. So she's not hurting for lack of a custom from me. I guess her half of our two tandems adds up to one more bike for her eh? They're both definitely vintage, one's a '71. Our little house doesn't have room for another bike, unless we ditch the couch or the dinner table... Hmmm... no, I don't think she'd go for that. :LOL:
 
For a variety of reasons, I've got quite a few steel frames (mostly because I've got the space, a 120sq m loft) I've got roughly 6 working order carbon frames, and all of them with the exception of a Trek Madone have some sort of 'saved by glue and luck' damage to them. My favourite is a 2004 BMC with an aluminium seat lug so badly designed, I've had to cut and glue the seat post in permanently. If I shrink or want to give it to my son, we're both onto plums!

Nearly all of it my steel frames are in A1 condition, and with the exception of some rough chrome on some of them, I expect them to stay that way and outlive me.

My favourite is a Spanish frame, probably from the late 50s, no name, but I think it's almost certainly an Otero. It's got 4 inch long Hetchins style lugs, and it's well under 1600gr. When I bought it (at a flea market in Girona) I didn't think much of it, in it's over painted maroon and gold, but I did notice the weight: every single component on it had been replaced with Spanish titanium, down to the hub axles and skewers. To give you an idea, the front tubular wheel weighs just 490gr.

I do look forward to the day when the pros and contemporary frame builders get the good wind of lightweight steel tubing behind them, and little but little it becomes mainstream again

I am SO bored of carbon. It's a nice lightweight material for sure, but far too exotic and fragile for road bikes imo. I've got a steel 531 pro bike silver soldered from the 1970s that could give any modern carbon/plastic bike a run for it's money. Skinny tubes do look the part on a bike, and fashion has a habit of changing in the most unpredictable of ways. We'll see...
 
I have an early '90s Basso with I believe "EL" (maybe "EL-O" looking at the photo). Never stripped the frame (Chorus group) and fork is replacement so hard to figure from feel; but still lighter than my other stuff. (Sorry, old in the process of moving photo).
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I have a late '90s "853" tubed GT Saturn team (Brian Walton's) bike I got last year that is still equipped with D-A (7700?) and is very lightweight, but it has a stock carbon fork so not really legal in this context (no photo yet.)
 
I just stumbled across this thread and it reminded me of a French '70s BaCo frame set I was given a couple of years ago. It is a 55 or 56cm frame weighing a smidge under 1500g, and 550g for the fork. It's really beautifully built, RGF lugs, and most likely top end Vitus tubing, or 753 as they were an acredited builder. I shall dig it out.
Another lightweight I have is a tiny fillet brazed Reynolds 725 Malc Cowle I bought just to admire the craftsmanship. It's actually way too small for me, or the missus. Hoping to build it up for my son one day. Never weighed it but it feels very VERY light.
 
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I have an early '90s Basso with I believe "EL" (maybe "EL-O" looking at the photo).

If the TT is inch and the DT is 1-1/8" then it's EL. EL-OS bumps up both of those sizes by another eighth, i.e. 1-1/4" DT.

EL was .7/.4 Nivacrom. I think it might have been the very first tubeset in Nivacrom, unless Max came out first? Similar era anyway, late '80s. I made a couple frames with EL (non-OS) and they would be too whippy for a big guy or sprinter. EL-OS was made to fix that. Max is even bigger diameter, plus the ovalizing (which is mostly gimmick if you ask me), definitely rigid enough for almost anyone. They did come out with MiniMax a bit later, the answer for people who wanted the ovals but not as heavy and stiff.

Nivacrom was not just hype, it was (is?) noticeably stronger than the Cr-Mo they made SL and SLX out of (later called Cyclex, which may have been a slightly improved formulation compared to previous SL/SLX). After you cold-set a number of them by hand (usually with leverage), you develop a feel for how much oomph it takes to make it yield. Not something you can put a number on, but relative rankings. I'd say Nivacrom was pretty similar to Prestige in the same diameter and wall thickness, too close for my unscientific method to tell 'em apart anyway.

This is from possibly unreliable memory, don't bet too much on it!
 
Max is even bigger diameter, plus the ovalizing (which is mostly gimmick if you ask me), definitely rigid enough for almost anyone.
Interesting take on Max! I have tried a Serotta T Max and it’s hands down the stiffest and most responsive frame I had ever experienced from steel bikes. I think ovalisation plays a role in it. It’s not just the widest diameter of the tubes that matter.
 
I inherited a Merckx Max frame from one of my old race pals when he gave up the sport. Although it was a bit of the chunky side (heavy) it was a great stiff ride, which had suited him because he was a monster of a sprinter. No one could get near him in a mass finish, he definitely cited the frame as an advantage.
 
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I don't mean to say that ovalizing is bad. Sometimes it's great, like the oval at the bottom of a seat tube, definitely an easy win for more of the right kind of stiffness without extra weight. But I think Max has ovals where they don't make good sense.

It's just a fact of physics that ovalizing a round (cylindrical) tube increases the bending stiffness (in one plane only), while reducing the torsional stiffness. Any shaping you do on to a round tube reduces torsional stiffness because thinwall round is the most efficient shape for torsion, proven mathematically and by empirical measurement.

So, what are the ovals for in a Max toptube? Even the builders who use it can't agree, with some of them orienting the oval side-to-side at the back (seat cluster), some orienting it side-to-side at the front (HT). Neither end of a TT ever sees any side-to-side bending from riding, not enough to mention anyway, so there should never be a side-to-side oriented oval at either end.

The Max DT has a side-to-side oval at the BB, which is defensible since there is side-to-side bending there. But I believe the important load on a DT is torsional, so it should be left round. Definitely debateable though. What's less debateable IMHO is the up-and-down oval at the HT. Yes it increases strength, less likely to bend back in a crash, but are we building them for crashing or for riding? For riding, that reduces torsional stiffness, with no corresponding advantage, in fact it makes the frame harsher when hitting bumps — less in-plane "give" to reduce shocks and road buzz.

Chainstays too, the oval at the BB shell is all downside with no advantage. Chainstays do see bending and torsional loads, but the oval in Max stays is oriented exactly wrong for resisting that bending load. The only sensible oval at the BB shell would be a side-to-side oriented oval, which of course no one does. The oval at the tire and chainring clearance point makes sense, which is why 531 and do many other tubesets went to round-oval-round (ROR) for chainstays. Round for as much of the length as possible, for torsion, just a little oval where needed for clearance.

That's why on my racing tandem I used Max chainstays, but I reshaped them back to round at the BB shell, leaving a little oval for clearance, classic ROR with a smooth but fairly rapid transition from the round at the BB to the oval right where the tire needs it. The Max stays are huge, 1-1/8" when re-rounded, the largest steel chainstays I have ever seen. I built a lot of tandems and Match Sprint track bikes, so I was always looking for stiff chainstays. Nothing else came close, with 1" (25.4 mm) being the next-largest stays I ever saw. 24 mm was the traditional "oversize" chainstay for Match Sprint, but they look puny next to a Max.

But knowing what I know about chainstay loads, no way I'd ever make a frame with the stays oval up-and-down at the BB shell, that would be admitting defeat, for me.

I'll admit, all this theoretical engineering analysis is nothing compared to going out and riding, and there are plenty of Max frames out there that ride GREAT. Max was the first example of what has become the new normal in steel frames, with everyone going huge diameters with super thin walls. So it's historically interesting as the harbinger of a new age of steel. Just not for me since I like a bit more give in the frame, Max is too stiff for me. And I'm big and heavy with a strong sprint as my forte (or I should say "was", back when I was racing). Most people don't need a frame as stiff as what top pro sprinters ride, but if the Walter Mitty fantasies make riding fun for you, it would be churlish of me to take that away from you. ;)
 
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Thanks a lot for these insights!

It’s pretty interesting to read how frame builders see the different quailities of steel when selecting the correct type of tubing for a frame.

For me this is the most fascinating part of building and riding retro bikes as I really feel that the selection of tubing affects ride quality of steel frame by a lot. At least on the bikes I have tried it does.

Personally I was always interested to know why the chain stays (and most seat stays too) of the majority of steel bikes are tappered near the BB. I understood this was to increase stiffness but with your explanations I understand there are other ways to achieve that.

I always thought that the smaller diameter tubing at the rear end in the drops outs always seemed susceptible to additional torsional movements especially when sprinting. So in my view I thought untapped seat and chain stays would provide better energy transfer for road bikes intended for sprinting for example. Yet, I can hardly quote any that have such type of tubing.

That’s why I am very interested in steel frames with untappered chain stays too. Surprisingly, there were not a lot of brands that choose to utilize untappered seat stays. I think True Temper produced such stays for a few US brands like Marin, Fat Chance, Cherry and a few others I am forgetting now but these frame were the exception of the rule.

On the contrary, most Titanium and Alu frames have unatappered chain stays. I

wonder what your views are on them?

According to Chris Chance, untappered seat and chains stays can increase the stiffness of the rear end of the frame by 5th fold and achieve a better energy transfer. There is this Pro Closet You Tube video where he explains this.
 

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