old_coyote_pedaller
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There's no logic with this level of shiny-foil hat mentalism. :roll:
There's no logic with this level of shiny-foil hat mentalism. :roll:
Klien vs cannondale
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Your thought pattern falls apart when you hit the Trek era ... and the Dale becomes the more desirable brand. :facepalm:
Osella":4c7qhn0k said:
Your thought pattern falls apart when you hit the Trek era ... and the Dale becomes the more desirable brand. :facepalm:
highlandsflyer
Retro Wizard
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Cannondale clearly wins in the letters department, like NASA beats UN.
Cannondale clearly wins in the letters department, like NASA beats UN.
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Could we consider that all bikes, made with filled brazed tubes Reynolds 531 are the same ?
Are litespeed and Merlin identical because made in 3-2,5 titanium ?
Yes, Cannondale and Klein used the same 6061T6 alloy and filled the welds but each bikes are different.
You could find some information for Cannondale versus Klein there, but, philosophies of each brand were different. First Cannonade mob (designed in part by John Olsen) used a rear 24" wheel for a best mud clearance (hard to work big alloy stays at that time) and for a easier technical ride. First Mountain Klein was not a trial bike but more built for XC.
(I met Jacky Phelan 5 years ago and she told me that Klein filed suit against Charlie Cunningham for building aluminum mtb… :roll: )
Secondly, Gary Klein was in a group of student in university when he worked on aluminum bike. He wasn't alone.
And for the end, René Vietto and Apo Lazaridès rode aluminum welded bike for the Tour de France 1948, with oversized tubes with elliptic ends (bikes built by Nicola Barra) !!!
In the bike world, everybody copy everybody !
In my opinion, Klein versus Cannondale doesn't matter. Which is the best ? I don't know. I've got both in my collection and sometimes, I prefer to ride my Attitude, sometimes I prefer an old 3.0 frame or my beast of the East with 24" rear wheel. They are so different
Could we consider that all bikes, made with filled brazed tubes Reynolds 531 are the same ?
Are litespeed and Merlin identical because made in 3-2,5 titanium ?
Yes, Cannondale and Klein used the same 6061T6 alloy and filled the welds but each bikes are different.
You could find some information for Cannondale versus Klein there, but, philosophies of each brand were different. First Cannonade mob (designed in part by John Olsen) used a rear 24" wheel for a best mud clearance (hard to work big alloy stays at that time) and for a easier technical ride. First Mountain Klein was not a trial bike but more built for XC.
(I met Jacky Phelan 5 years ago and she told me that Klein filed suit against Charlie Cunningham for building aluminum mtb… :roll: )
Secondly, Gary Klein was in a group of student in university when he worked on aluminum bike. He wasn't alone.
And for the end, René Vietto and Apo Lazaridès rode aluminum welded bike for the Tour de France 1948, with oversized tubes with elliptic ends (bikes built by Nicola Barra) !!!
In the bike world, everybody copy everybody !
In my opinion, Klein versus Cannondale doesn't matter. Which is the best ? I don't know. I've got both in my collection and sometimes, I prefer to ride my Attitude, sometimes I prefer an old 3.0 frame or my beast of the East with 24" rear wheel. They are so different
They were far from collaborating or sharing designs...at each other's throats for most of the 80s. 
Did you research extend to the extensive lawsuits and counter-claims between the two companies in the mid-80s?
http://openjurist.org/884/f2d/1399/klei ... tion
From what I understand, Klein sued Cannondale (and Charlie Cunningham) for breach of his '77 patent for a fat tubed, 'high efficiency' bike frame, and lost. Cannondale cited frames made by Bill Shook (American Classic), Harlan (Hi-E) and Roger Durham (Bullseye) as prior art evidence. Klein appealed and lost again on the grounds that he had conveniently failed to mention these previous builders, (and also all the other students in the team which had made aluminium frames in the MIT class he attended in 1974) in his 1977 patent application.
Klein always struck me as a genius backed up by well targeted marketing and an aggressive patent junkie legal team...among other things, he (with some via Trek) filed patents for:
----fork building methods (nothing new)
----differential chainstay designs (Columbus etc)
----the anti-suck chain device (like all the other ones already out there)
----the Klein Mantra suspension (Nobody else even tried to do that!)
and amazingly even got away with:
----a soft-tail road bike patent in 2004.
A date so late that it shows just what a pile of bulls**t and cr*p the US patent system is.
IMHO quite a bit of the extra cost of a Klein went in lawyers' fees and defending patents.
No wonder Trek dropped most of the weird sh*t as quick as they could when they bought the company and milked the high zoot brand dry in a few years...
All the best,
Did you research extend to the extensive lawsuits and counter-claims between the two companies in the mid-80s?
http://openjurist.org/884/f2d/1399/klei ... tion
From what I understand, Klein sued Cannondale (and Charlie Cunningham) for breach of his '77 patent for a fat tubed, 'high efficiency' bike frame, and lost. Cannondale cited frames made by Bill Shook (American Classic), Harlan (Hi-E) and Roger Durham (Bullseye) as prior art evidence. Klein appealed and lost again on the grounds that he had conveniently failed to mention these previous builders, (and also all the other students in the team which had made aluminium frames in the MIT class he attended in 1974) in his 1977 patent application.
Klein always struck me as a genius backed up by well targeted marketing and an aggressive patent junkie legal team...among other things, he (with some via Trek) filed patents for:
----fork building methods (nothing new)
----differential chainstay designs (Columbus etc)
----the anti-suck chain device (like all the other ones already out there)
----the Klein Mantra suspension (Nobody else even tried to do that!)
and amazingly even got away with:
----a soft-tail road bike patent in 2004.
A date so late that it shows just what a pile of bulls**t and cr*p the US patent system is.
IMHO quite a bit of the extra cost of a Klein went in lawyers' fees and defending patents.
No wonder Trek dropped most of the weird sh*t as quick as they could when they bought the company and milked the high zoot brand dry in a few years...
All the best,
danson67":2u4i7kyq said:They were far from collaborating or sharing designs...at each other's throats for most of the 80s.
Did you research extend to the extensive lawsuits and counter-claims between the two companies in the mid-80s?
http://openjurist.org/884/f2d/1399/klei ... tion
From what I understand, Klein sued Cannondale (and Charlie Cunningham) for breach of his '77 patent for a fat tubed, 'high efficiency' bike frame, and lost. Cannondale cited frames made by Bill Shook (American Classic), Harlan (Hi-E) and Roger Durham (Bullseye) as prior art evidence. Klein appealed and lost again on the grounds that he had conveniently failed to mention these previous builders, (and also all the other students in the team which had made aluminium frames in the MIT class he attended in 1974) in his 1977 patent application.
Klein always struck me as a genius backed up by well targeted marketing and an aggressive patent junkie legal team...among other things, he (with some via Trek) filed patents for:
----fork building methods (nothing new)
----differential chainstay designs (Columbus etc)
----the anti-suck chain device (like all the other ones already out there)
----the Klein Mantra suspension (Nobody else even tried to do that!)
and amazingly even got away with:
----a soft-tail road bike patent in 2004.
A date so late that it shows just what a pile of bulls**t and cr*p the US patent system is.
IMHO quite a bit of the extra cost of a Klein went in lawyers' fees and defending patents.
No wonder Trek dropped most of the weird sh*t as quick as they could when they bought the company and milked the high zoot brand dry in a few years...
All the best,
Very interesting links
Thanks
highlandsflyer
Retro Wizard
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Cannondale are one of the most innovative and quality led makers in bike history.
More a case of 'back in the day' Habitat really.
Klein? Well, I guess the equivalent of something smaller scale, if equally innovative and with incredible design integrity.
More a case of 'back in the day' Habitat really.
Klein? Well, I guess the equivalent of something smaller scale, if equally innovative and with incredible design integrity.
