Holdsworth Frame Numbers

[dwscrimshaw]

Thanks for the frame number, logged that away. Doug if far better placed to comment on the CB details. I can say that this is part of the 6 Digit number system use by Holdsworth for all their frames from 1976. When you say you bought the frame in 1980 was this new at the time? the reason for asking is that tying to predict the build date of the frame would suggest 1978 for the use of that number in line with your comments on the model. How ever it is not uncommon for frame to find their way to customers latter than the date we predict for the use of the number by the factory. Any document y evidence would be good to know/see, like if you have a receipt of job card etc. Also would you be happy to attach a photo of the frame.

Thanks again for the number.

 

[markbeaver]

Re:

Thanks for your great work on formulating this database. As an owner of three Holdsworths, it's refreshing.

I can add a data point for my first Holdsworth, which I ordered in the fall of 1981 and received in winter 81-82; and assembled it and flew with it to Victoria, British Columbia, Canada in early May 1982 and cycled across Canada to my home in Halifax, Nova Scotia, arriving mid July.

I still have it and enjoy it regularly, I shall have to post some photos.

In 2010 I purchased a Cyclone frame and fork from Hilary Stone - who described it as "around 1954". The serial number is on the right rear dropout, number 17153, which your database would corroborate as late 1953 ish. Some photos are at https://www.flickr.com/photos/markbeave ... 6893176698

And a couple of years ago I acquired a purple Mistral # 028629, basically identical to my black one except for colour. Since the black one is assembled with full touring gear, I built up the purple one as a lightweight build, with Stronglight 105 BIS cranks 38-48; titanium Huret DuoPar, Mavic MA40's with 700x28's, Mafac Competition centrepulls and everything else Campag. A lovely riding machine and quite different personality from the black one, due to the lighter weight and fast wheels.

My black one is serial number 035395, and I have the original hangtag from it still.

Mark Beaver
Halifax, NS, Canada

 

[CBguy]

Hi Satdog,

Agree with Dave pictures would be great and any original documents even better.

I should qualify "I'm no Claud Butler expert". The letters CB in CBguy actually come from the place in Nova Scotia that I hail from. Dumb move.

Dave is correct, between '76 and '85 the Holdsworthy company lumped all their Holdsworth and Claud Butler models together in a sequential six digit number system always beginning with o(s). Before take over of Claud Butler in '57 and until 76 Clauds had been numbered separately. Many of the Holdsworth Clauds were simply clones of Holdsworth Models at least in early years.

Looking at catalogues on Kilgariff's site, like yourself, I don't see a Claud model that is equivalent to or the caliber of the Holdsworth Pro - in '78 the top model built with 531SL with 74deg angles and chrome ends. Is there a model name on your frame?

In chasing the numbers it has come to light that Holdsworth built "specials" for other shops that were numbered differently in the earlier years but with the new system all frames were in the same system. The shop in Dublin possibly ordered your frame as a "special" build, requesting a top end road frame, but specifying the Claud Butler brand rather than Holdsworth. Interesting if you know any of these details.

Post takeover Clauds sometimes get a bad rap as not "real clauds" but you obviously have an excellent quality and unique frame.

Perhaps somebody with more experience re this model Claud will have more to add. Pictures would be good.

Doug Allen

 

[CBguy]

Hi Mark,

Nice to hear details of your latest Mistral.

During your career at the Trail Shop, something tells me you may have had some experience ordering frames from Holdsworthy? Any stories? Process? Did you ever ask for "special" builds?

Doug

Dave Scrimshaw might find helpful.

 

[dwscrimshaw]

Thanks Mark, good to have these numbers I think they are going to be useful. I am reviewing the graphs currently and a issues is appearing around the 1952 dates that we do no understand fully. Your 1954 number fall into the surrounding knock on effects and is a good data point.

Also the frame the Mistral frame you received in Winter 1981/82 is close to the date boundary. Again I always keep these under review when new info comes in like this. Do you remember when you received it. Currently I see this as a 1982 number, but I would have expected it to have been built in 81, unless they were working quickly to get these frames out. As Doug said your experience on this would be helpful.

Thanks again Dave

 

[Satdog]

Re:

Hi all.

I bought the frame and forks new in Hardings Cycles, Dublin in March 1980. I still have the original receipt. There is no model name on the frame or receipt. The receipt simply says Holdsworth "Claud Butler". I'll try and get a couple of pictures up in the next day or so. The shop is long gone.

Thanks

Peter

 

[CBguy]

H again Satdog,

Even more interesting!

In our searching, Harding has been found to be one of the shops that is known to have ordered frames from Holdsworthy both being sold as Holdsworths but often being rebranded with the Harding name. There are several Harding Pro's and other higher end frames as the Special that have popped up with the Harding name on it. I believe there was/is a Harding shop in Cork area as well. One of the Harding brothers had a shop in California and Hardings do surface in that area. I have had recent fascinating PM's via Bike Forums with a Harding employee at the shop in the U.S, and he describes frames being ordered "to measure" with different angles and braze-ons. So it is not a stretch at all to think that your Claud Butler was a special order from Holdsworthy branded as a Claud Butler. I actually have a '68 Claud Butler (Super Mistral clone) which was known to be a "made to measure" frame at a time when the Claud Super Torino was not yet listed as a catalog Claud Model.

http://www.bikeforums.net/classic-vinta ... ilt-2.html

http://www.bikeforums.net/classic-vinta ... st14961075

Holdsworthy have a long history of selling frames for branding by other shops. Hill Cycles in Philadelphia, Gillot during their decline in early 70's and DBS (Norwegian) are other examples. Dave lists some examples of these. As I said earlier on they were given special numbers but by '76 they appear to have all come under the same 6 digit system as yours.

Doug

 

[markbeaver]

Re:

Hi Doug and Dave - I worked at The Trail Shop in Halifax NS Canada from June 1981 until 1995. I began as a mechanic and worked up thru sales staff to buyer. But by the time I became the buyer, the shop was no longer ordering framesets from England. My ex-boss Greg Smiley ordered the framesets. They had already placed orders prior to my arrival so began importing in 1980 or possibly 1979. My 25 1/2" Mistral arrived in a shipment of eight or ten framesets, including some Professionals and Specials and Mistrals. Later shipments included some Elans as well, I think in 1983 possibly.

 

[markbeaver]

Thanks Mark, good to have these numbers I think they are going to be useful. I am reviewing the graphs currently and a issues is appearing around the 1952 dates that we do no understand fully. Your 1954 number fall into the surrounding knock on effects and is a good data point.

Also the frame the Mistral frame you received in Winter 1981/82 is close to the date boundary. Again I always keep these under review when new info comes in like this. Do you remember when you received it. Currently I see this as a 1982 number, but I would have expected it to have been built in 81, unless they were working quickly to get these frames out. As Doug said your experience on this would be helpful.

Thanks again Dave

I can't remember the month of arrival of the black Mistral but it certainly was 1982, not '81, but whether it arrived in February or March has disappeared into the mists of time. I was certainly riding it in April 1982.

Mark Beaver
Halifax, NS, Canada

 

[dwscrimshaw]

Re: Re:

Hi all.

I bought the frame and forks new in Hardings Cycles, Dublin in March 1980. I still have the original receipt. There is no model name on the frame or receipt. The receipt simply says Holdsworth "Claud Butler". I'll try and get a couple of pictures up in the next day or so. The shop is long gone.

Thanks

Peter

Thanks for the confirmation, that's good to know, will log that down. Yes pic would be good too.