Frame Identification.....Mercian, Claud Butler, Jack Hearne....?

[torqueless]

Iirc Jack Hearne numbers are first two digits = year , so probably not a Hearne, nor a Mercian, nor a Holdsworth. Holdsworth numbers I've seen have been drive-side. That 4-digit number looks more Bob Jackson, but Jackson numbers I've seen have been central under the bracket.
That fork crown- Milremo Giro- is sort of '60s-mid '70s. The fork rake makes me think the frame is probably towards the later end of that time-span. (compare to the '64 Hearne.) The rear brake bridge looks more modern still and may have been replaced. My best guess is late '60s-early '70s. Who built it is anybody's guess- somebody who knows frame number formats/positions better than me.

 

[vcballbat]

Nice frame. Does it have wrapover?

No wrap on the Pennine, my 61 Jensen Italia has wrap over but different style numbers..

 

[sherlylock]

Yeah after my initial insistence that it was an early Claud Cordon Bleu, I’m less convinced now although the frame number would conveniently sit in 1960.
The Mercian shout seems strong but I’ve no idea about their frame numbering system.

That Jack Hearne looks on the money. But how does the frame number sit with them?

What puts you off the Claud Cordon Bleu Peachy? Is it the brake bridge and fork crown?

Pennine?

Interesting shout that - I've looked up some of the 60's Pennine Italia and there is a version that has wrap over stays. No idea on frame numbering though.

The fork crown is a fairly common one used by many builders. The wrap-over seat stays do look like they could be from the Holdsworthy stable (Claud Butler, Holdsworth, Freddie Grubb) and remember that Holdsworth built for the trade so many shops (including possibly Jack Hearne) would have supplied Holdsworth frames with the shop's name on. I reckon with the style of frame fittings and cable stops etc. it might well be a mid-60's frame. Looks like it would build up into a nice bike. Are the forks etc. built for 27" or 700c wheels?

Mid 60s feels right - although the rear dropouts are early Campag (1010) I think - which would possibly be earlier? I've read somewhere online (so it must be true! ) that the campag 1010 dropout with the spring hole above the derailleur mount are 1950's. Also the Milano badged Cinelli stem (if original) is 50s I think. When did Nervex Pro lugs come into existence?

Iirc Jack Hearne numbers are first two digits = year , so probably not a Hearne, nor a Mercian, nor a Holdsworth. Holdsworth numbers I've seen have been drive-side. That 4-digit number looks more Bob Jackson, but Jackson numbers I've seen have been central under the bracket.
That fork crown- Milremo Giro- is sort of '60s-mid '70s. The fork rake makes me think the frame is probably towards the later end of that time-span. (compare to the '64 Hearne.) The rear brake bridge looks more modern still and may have been replaced. My best guess is late '60s-early '70s. Who built it is anybody's guess- somebody who knows frame number formats/positions better than me.

I think the frame number is probably key to gaining any confidence on a particular frame maker (providing I can find something similar to compare to). The closest that it possibly fits so far is Claud Butler - number format potentially fits the period where Holdsworth started making Claud frames - underside of the bb shell and fork steerer are the right locations. There is suggestion (again online) that early Mercian numbers may not follow the later 2 digit date format and I've found images of early King of Mercia frames that have the same fork crown/brake bridge/lugs/wrap over stays. Who knows - I may never get a definitive answer but doing the research is quite fun. Learning a lot.....

 

[Nob]

No wrap on the Pennine, my 61 Jensen Italia has wrap over but different style numbers..

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Liking the seatpost as that must be quite rare

 

[Peachy!]

Claud Butler Cordon Bleu for & against list;

For;
Correct tubing (531 db)
Correct Nervex lugs
Correct wrap over for 1960
Numbers fit 1960 Holdsworth Claud seperate system

Against;
Straight brake bridge
Campag rather than Agrati drop outs
Fork crown
Lack of badge holes
Number stamp should be around the BB shell near the edge during this Holdsworth Claud period rather than across the shells width.

However. The Cordon was the top of the range and this was a period when customer options were still available. I have seen that fork crown on an early Holdsworth Claud, the Campag drop outs were available in 1960 (I think) and were advertised on Holdsworthy Clauds by 1964 and a straight bridge might have been a special request as the Clauds only had curved bridges from 1959-1970.

Maybe its a Holdsworth?

Any ideas @CBguy @dwscrimshaw

 

[otherself]

Claud Butler Cordon Bleu for & against list;

For;
Correct tubing (531 db)
Correct Nervex lugs
Correct wrap over for 1960
Numbers fit 1960 Holdsworth Claud seperate system

Against;
Straight brake bridge
Campag rather than Agrati drop outs
Fork crown
Lack of badge holes
Number stamp should be around the BB shell near the edge during this Holdsworth Claud period rather than across the shells width.

However. The Cordon was the top of the range and this was a period when customer options were still available. I have seen that fork crown on an early Holdsworth Claud, the Campag drop outs were available in 1960 (I think) and were advertised on Holdsworthy Clauds by 1964 and a straight bridge might have been a special request as the Clauds only had curved bridges from 1959-1970.

Maybe its a Holdsworth?

Any ideas @CBguy @dwscrimshaw

Surely lack of badge holes would mean it isn't a CB, no? I can't remember CB ever using waterslide transfers for a headbadge, not in the 50's or 60's to my knowledge. They were pinned.

Pennine used waterslide for headbadge (no holes), Italian-esque frame angles, nervex lugs and wrapovers on seatstays for certain models, but the frame number doesn't seem to fit.

I think as the frame number Itself, the lack of head badge holes is the second most telling to its identity - the company that made it used waterslide or stuck on badge.

 

[sherlylock]

Surely lack of badge holes would mean it isn't a CB, no? I can't remember CB ever using waterslide transfers for a headbadge, not in the 50's or 60's to my knowledge. They were pinned.

Pennine used waterslide for headbadge (no holes), Italian-esque frame angles, nervex lugs and wrapovers on seatstays for certain models, but the frame number doesn't seem to fit.

I think as the frame number Itself, the lack of head badge holes is the second most telling to its identity - the company that made it used waterslide or stuck on badge.

I've got a 50s Claud (New Allrounder) with a transfer headbadge so "proper" Claud's certainly had them. Not sure about Holdsworth Clauds.

 

[otherself]

I've got a 50s Claud (New Allrounder) with a transfer headbadge so "proper" Claud's certainly had them. Not sure about Holdsworth Clauds.

Oh, ok. I'm not fully acknowledge on cb's. But most I've seen had pinned badges.

 

[Peachy!]

Oh, ok. I'm not fully acknowledge on cb's. But most I've seen had pinned badges.

@otherself is correct in the fact between 1959 and 1979/80 all commercially sold Holdsworth Clauds had tin badges, although I've seen the odd track/TT special from this period without but I'm assuming these had been customer shouts.
my biggest bugbear is the frame number being 90 degrees out of position for this early sixties period of Claud.

 

[sherlylock]

@otherself is correct in the fact between 1959 and 1979/80 all commercially sold Holdsworth Clauds had tin badges, although I've seen the odd track/TT special from this period without but I'm assuming these had been customer shouts.
my biggest bugbear is the frame number being 90 degrees out of position for this early sixties period of Claud.

In your Claud frame number post there's a frame from '61 (Super Coureur) with the frame number in the same orientation as mine. The later sixties frames then look to be 90deg out......am I viewing that correctly?