1963 King of Mercia - is it?
- Thread starter legrandefromage
- Start date
Re:
I really thought Milmero was the creation of Bertin - with an "italianization" to surf on the possible higher status of italian cycling products
and I believed Kitching the importer from the Bertin and Shimano stuff in the UK
but seems the two guys were partners in the creation of Milremo
nevertheless, for french guys like me - Milremo is more middle range stuff !
https://bertinclassiccycles.wordpress.c ... y/milremo/
I really thought Milmero was the creation of Bertin - with an "italianization" to surf on the possible higher status of italian cycling products
and I believed Kitching the importer from the Bertin and Shimano stuff in the UK
but seems the two guys were partners in the creation of Milremo
nevertheless, for french guys like me - Milremo is more middle range stuff !
https://bertinclassiccycles.wordpress.c ... y/milremo/
torqueless
Senior Retro Guru
Re:
So is the fork crown in question- i.e. the one on LGF's frame- a French manufacture? bduc61, have you seen that crown used on period (60s-70s) French frames at all? I don't remember seeing it, but obviously you have had far greater exposure. I notice that it is not used on the green Bertin C34 at your link, just above the post about Bertin/Kitching?
I extrapolate that Spanish Zeus stuff- whether 'Milremo-ised' or not- was more prevalent/generally available in France than in Britain. The Milremo/Arius saddle was made in Spain too, of course..
So is the fork crown in question- i.e. the one on LGF's frame- a French manufacture? bduc61, have you seen that crown used on period (60s-70s) French frames at all? I don't remember seeing it, but obviously you have had far greater exposure. I notice that it is not used on the green Bertin C34 at your link, just above the post about Bertin/Kitching?
I extrapolate that Spanish Zeus stuff- whether 'Milremo-ised' or not- was more prevalent/generally available in France than in Britain. The Milremo/Arius saddle was made in Spain too, of course..
Re:
Tricky to say for this specific frame :|
If the brake cable stops are "the english way" I doubt the frame to be french ! ( you drive on the wrong side of the road - don't you :idea: :mrgreen: )
The seatstays top with this "wrap" is reminiscent of Urago (NICE ) or Follis ( LYON) but I belive other Uk framemakers fancied that specific feature and this one is not exactly identical to the french known to me as far as my ( aging) memory tells me. :facepalm:
About the fork, the recessed top horizontal line in the lug does not ring a bell to me :idea:
in France Prugnat & Bocama were probably the two major supplier of lugs
but you could find other smaller providers either French or Foreign ( Wagner - Ekla for example)
and lugs could also be modified by the framemaker ( the more often if the maker was "upmarket" and took a pride in well finished frames)
Cinelli BB are also quite common
Campagnolo , Huret , Simplex, Vitus endstays or fork ends are found on a vast array of frames ( the later, the more the frequency of Campa)
Here you'll find a small library of lugs ( sorry some pics are missing) on a french forum of "nuts" I belong too :facepalm:
http://veloretrocourse.proboards.com/th ... s-bbshells
Tricky to say for this specific frame :|
If the brake cable stops are "the english way" I doubt the frame to be french ! ( you drive on the wrong side of the road - don't you :idea: :mrgreen: )
The seatstays top with this "wrap" is reminiscent of Urago (NICE ) or Follis ( LYON) but I belive other Uk framemakers fancied that specific feature and this one is not exactly identical to the french known to me as far as my ( aging) memory tells me. :facepalm:
About the fork, the recessed top horizontal line in the lug does not ring a bell to me :idea:
in France Prugnat & Bocama were probably the two major supplier of lugs
but you could find other smaller providers either French or Foreign ( Wagner - Ekla for example)
and lugs could also be modified by the framemaker ( the more often if the maker was "upmarket" and took a pride in well finished frames)
Cinelli BB are also quite common
Campagnolo , Huret , Simplex, Vitus endstays or fork ends are found on a vast array of frames ( the later, the more the frequency of Campa)
Here you'll find a small library of lugs ( sorry some pics are missing) on a french forum of "nuts" I belong too :facepalm:
http://veloretrocourse.proboards.com/th ... s-bbshells
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Re: Interesting 60's road frame?
Anymore ideas?
Anymore ideas?
torqueless
Senior Retro Guru
Re:
Err.. dozens! most of them veering increasingly off topic..
For example, here is my aborted attempt to reply humourously to bduc61...
You see, this is how 'rosbif'/'frog' relations work... your slur on the circulation patterns of the British highway system has effectively released me from the obligation to apologise for the Milremo cartoon Frenchman in jm's handbook, which I'm guessing did not feature in Milremo advertising east of 'La Manche'?
I think the recent referendum result in Britland bears testimony to the fact that 'we' have largely overcome such 'chauvinistic' tendencies.. :?
Actually that is interesting.. (well.. to me anyway..) the fact that, as you say, the Milremo brand was evoking Italia, but in the UK using a cartoon Frenchman. This is because all 'Brits' instinctively know that Frenchmen ride bikes, wear horizontal stripes and a beret, and sell onions, but the caricature Italian is much harder to define- maybe he plays the mandolin instead of selling onions? So, to a 'Brit', the cartoon Frenchman is emblematic of the whole amorphous mass of undifferentiated exotica that emanates from any country with a Mediterranean coast, and Milan might just as well be Bilbao or St. Etienne, San Remo might just as well be St. Tropez...
Talking of Milan-San Remo, I've sometimes pondered the semiotics of bicycle races. Is it symbolically significant for a bike race to start in a place where (simplistically) people work in factories, and finish in a place where (simplistically) people sunbathe and promenade?
------------------------------
.....So, you know... thank Christ Torqueless keeps most of his ideas to himself..
Presume you've checked the other usual stuff- established that this frame has 'English' BB threading and takes a 27.2 seat post? The Italian/French thing is sort of on-topic anyway, since, if this frame is a '63 it is pretty early in the English 'Italia' vogue- which displaced the baroque (French) Nervex lugs in favour of the simple pointed Prugnats. The Prugnats are French too, of course, but closely modelled on the sort of shape featured on late '50s Bianchis and Cinellis and such..
At least, thanks to jm we now know that the fork crown is a Milremo 'Giro', (another invocation of Italia) although still in the dark as to who actually manufactured it.
Err.. dozens! most of them veering increasingly off topic..
For example, here is my aborted attempt to reply humourously to bduc61... You see, this is how 'rosbif'/'frog' relations work...
your slur on the circulation patterns of the British highway system has effectively released me from the obligation to apologise for the Milremo cartoon Frenchman in jm's handbook, which I'm guessing did not feature in Milremo advertising east of 'La Manche'?I think the recent referendum result in Britland bears testimony to the fact that 'we' have largely overcome such 'chauvinistic' tendencies.. :?
Actually that is interesting.. (well.. to me anyway..) the fact that, as you say, the Milremo brand was evoking Italia, but in the UK using a cartoon Frenchman. This is because all 'Brits' instinctively know that Frenchmen ride bikes, wear horizontal stripes and a beret, and sell onions, but the caricature Italian is much harder to define- maybe he plays the mandolin instead of selling onions? So, to a 'Brit', the cartoon Frenchman is emblematic of the whole amorphous mass of undifferentiated exotica that emanates from any country with a Mediterranean coast, and Milan might just as well be Bilbao or St. Etienne, San Remo might just as well be St. Tropez...
Talking of Milan-San Remo, I've sometimes pondered the semiotics of bicycle races. Is it symbolically significant for a bike race to start in a place where (simplistically) people work in factories, and finish in a place where (simplistically) people sunbathe and promenade?
------------------------------
.....So, you know... thank Christ Torqueless keeps most of his ideas to himself..
Presume you've checked the other usual stuff- established that this frame has 'English' BB threading and takes a 27.2 seat post? The Italian/French thing is sort of on-topic anyway, since, if this frame is a '63 it is pretty early in the English 'Italia' vogue- which displaced the baroque (French) Nervex lugs in favour of the simple pointed Prugnats. The Prugnats are French too, of course, but closely modelled on the sort of shape featured on late '50s Bianchis and Cinellis and such..
At least, thanks to jm we now know that the fork crown is a Milremo 'Giro', (another invocation of Italia) although still in the dark as to who actually manufactured it.
Re:
I apologize for being unable to resist my derogatory comment about the "wrong side" of the road :facepalm:
it ought to be substantiated and at the moment I can't
furthermore upmarket french cars in the 30's ( delage & Delahaye ) still had the driving wheel on the right :idea:
But as my ancestor was in the imperial guard of Napoleon, captured during the Spain / Peninsula war with the help of England and kept prisoner on the Cadix pontoons ( he was lucky to survive as most prisoners died in horrendous conditions) , and my father in law was witness of the Mers El Kebir naval episode, I confess I have got a sort on "mefiance" to english "ways" which pops up from time to time
back to the frame : I frankly believe it is a 70's frame and most certainly not a 63 - numbering ways are so erratic ( apart from Rene Herse one) that we should not draw conclusion from such a number
rear width and seatpost diameter will give other clues :idea:
I apologize for being unable to resist my derogatory comment about the "wrong side" of the road :facepalm:
it ought to be substantiated and at the moment I can't
furthermore upmarket french cars in the 30's ( delage & Delahaye ) still had the driving wheel on the right :idea:
But as my ancestor was in the imperial guard of Napoleon, captured during the Spain / Peninsula war with the help of England and kept prisoner on the Cadix pontoons ( he was lucky to survive as most prisoners died in horrendous conditions) , and my father in law was witness of the Mers El Kebir naval episode, I confess I have got a sort on "mefiance" to english "ways" which pops up from time to time
back to the frame : I frankly believe it is a 70's frame and most certainly not a 63 - numbering ways are so erratic ( apart from Rene Herse one) that we should not draw conclusion from such a number
rear width and seatpost diameter will give other clues :idea:
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