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1963 King of Mercia - is it?
- Thread starter legrandefromage
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torqueless
Senior Retro Guru
Re:
If you have serial no.63410 it might be reasonable to provisionally date the frame to 1963, unless there are any glaring anachronisms? Is the number on the steerer too?
Off the top of my head- builders who (iirc) used the 'first two digits=year of build' number format: Mercian, Pennine, Pat Hanlon, Jack Hearne.. by no means a complete list.. Probably not many on the 'complete list' put the number on the dropout, so that'd narrow it down.
That fork crown was commonly used afaik at least between mid '60s to mid '70s. My go-to internet exemplar was the '64 Jack Hearne at Classic Lightweights, and I have a putative '75 mystery frame with the same casting. There's a Major Nichols website with examples of frames with that crown, and it is referred to there as being a Milremo crown. I'm not sure if 'Milremo' was simply a Ron Kitching rebranding exercise, or if there really was a Milremo factory somewhere- probably not in Milan or San Remo or anywhere in between- turning out hubs, rims, stems, saddles, and fork crowns?
The driveside rear dropout on your frame seems to have significantly more 'web' behind the derailleur-mounting hole than I'm used to seeing on a 1010- more like a Simplex dropout. I'm not saying they are not 1010s, just that I've never before seen one quite like that.
The lugs look more Prugnat than Bocama to me..
If you have serial no.63410 it might be reasonable to provisionally date the frame to 1963, unless there are any glaring anachronisms? Is the number on the steerer too?
Off the top of my head- builders who (iirc) used the 'first two digits=year of build' number format: Mercian, Pennine, Pat Hanlon, Jack Hearne.. by no means a complete list.. Probably not many on the 'complete list' put the number on the dropout, so that'd narrow it down.
That fork crown was commonly used afaik at least between mid '60s to mid '70s. My go-to internet exemplar was the '64 Jack Hearne at Classic Lightweights, and I have a putative '75 mystery frame with the same casting. There's a Major Nichols website with examples of frames with that crown, and it is referred to there as being a Milremo crown. I'm not sure if 'Milremo' was simply a Ron Kitching rebranding exercise, or if there really was a Milremo factory somewhere- probably not in Milan or San Remo or anywhere in between- turning out hubs, rims, stems, saddles, and fork crowns?
The driveside rear dropout on your frame seems to have significantly more 'web' behind the derailleur-mounting hole than I'm used to seeing on a 1010- more like a Simplex dropout. I'm not saying they are not 1010s, just that I've never before seen one quite like that.
The lugs look more Prugnat than Bocama to me..
Midlife
Retro Wizard
Re: Interesting 60's road frame?
As far as I am aware there was never a Milremo (Milan San Remo) factory. Ron Kit was the master at putting his name and that of Milremo on everything he could get his hands in and sell.....and make a few bob
Give him his due he generally sold pretty good rebadged stuff
Shaun
As far as I am aware there was never a Milremo (Milan San Remo) factory. Ron Kit was the master at putting his name and that of Milremo on everything he could get his hands in and sell.....and make a few bob
Give him his due he generally sold pretty good rebadged stuff
Shaun
torqueless
Senior Retro Guru
Re:
Yeah.. could easily be a Zeus crown then- Ron Kit were the Zeus importers after all.. and Zeus really did make everything, so I hear, apart from tyres, maybe..
Yeah.. could easily be a Zeus crown then- Ron Kit were the Zeus importers after all.. and Zeus really did make everything, so I hear, apart from tyres, maybe..
Midlife
Retro Wizard
Re: Interesting 60's road frame?
Yep, Zeus did have a stab at most things I only remember Zeus making 3 sorts of fork crown.. a pista with a four leaf panto on the top and drilling on the side, a road 2000 with lettering on the side and a later 2000 road with panto on the top.
I keep an eye out for the drilled out rear mech but usually get sold for way more than I want to pay.....the suede 70's saddles are classy too
Shaun
Yep, Zeus did have a stab at most things
I only remember Zeus making 3 sorts of fork crown.. a pista with a four leaf panto on the top and drilling on the side, a road 2000 with lettering on the side and a later 2000 road with panto on the top.I keep an eye out for the drilled out rear mech but usually get sold for way more than I want to pay.....the suede 70's saddles are classy too
Shaun
Re:
Ron Kitching branded many and various items MilRemo for very good commercial reasons. His association with Andre Bertin allowed quantity buying direct from manufacturers rather than buying from UK distributors. For example he had Mavic rims and Stronglight cranks branded MilRemo, but it also allowed one name for perhaps fifty different makers.
Keith
Ron Kitching branded many and various items MilRemo for very good commercial reasons. His association with Andre Bertin allowed quantity buying direct from manufacturers rather than buying from UK distributors. For example he had Mavic rims and Stronglight cranks branded MilRemo, but it also allowed one name for perhaps fifty different makers.
Keith
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Re: Interesting 60's road frame?
Cheers all! The dropouts most definitely have Campagnolo written on them!
Cheers all! The dropouts most definitely have Campagnolo written on them!
torqueless
Senior Retro Guru
Re:
@Midlife:
I guess Zeus could've been making crowns back in the '50s/'60s too, the 2000 is a later '70s styling?
Yeah, my 'Milremo' Professional saddle has been supporting me for forty years... I have no complaints.. (not suede though )
@Keithglos:
So do you have any idea who made that fork crown?
@LGF:
I don't doubt it, but, comparing your dropout to the 1010s in the attachment you posted, can you see what I mean?
@Midlife:
I guess Zeus could've been making crowns back in the '50s/'60s too, the 2000 is a later '70s styling?
Yeah, my 'Milremo' Professional saddle has been supporting me for forty years... I have no complaints.. (not suede though
)@Keithglos:
So do you have any idea who made that fork crown?
@LGF:
I don't doubt it, but, comparing your dropout to the 1010s in the attachment you posted, can you see what I mean?
torqueless
Senior Retro Guru
Re:
I know the feeling, but I get a reality check every time I attempt to manoeuvre my bike along a road surface subject to three and a half decades of 'the wisdom of the market'.. :roll:
I know the feeling, but I get a reality check every time I attempt to manoeuvre my bike along a road surface subject to three and a half decades of 'the wisdom of the market'.. :roll:
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